How To Choose Your Sign Shop Management Software / Better Sign Shop

00:00:00Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit. Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, [00:00:15] workflow, growth, and more. Your listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast With your hosts, Peter COIs, Michael Reilly and Bryant Gillespie.

00:00:29Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Before we [00:00:30] jump into the episode, I'd like to give a shout out to our sponsor, GCI Digital Imaging Grand Format Printer to the Trade. We talk a lot about outsourcing on the podcast and the importance of. Good partners and gci Digital [00:00:45] Imaging is a good partner to have owner TJ Bak and his team focus on providing killer customer service just the way grandmother used to make it.

00:01:00 episode nine where the guys and I interview TJ about customer experience. So if you're looking for a high quality trade printer for banners, wraps, and other printed graphics that your customers throw at you, check out [00:01:15] GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com.

00:01:30 today. We've got the man himself, the Sign Design Samurai. The Sign, chimi Changa, Mike Riley. Happy New Year. I feel like we've got the new year, new nickname [00:01:45] thing kind of on the horizon here.

00:01:48Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: See, I was hoping we'd leave the nickname in 2022, but I see it's, was there

00:01:53Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: at the end of the new year, were there, was there one that you really liked that we could stick with or there [00:02:00] was not? I feel like this, I feel like the search continues. Like the search continues. I saw somebody post on our YouTube channel the other day, like on the very first or second episode.

00:02:15 revisit that one or not. Yeah. Maybe when we get some more guests we can, I, I think we need to write that into the, the guide for our guests. Like come prepared with five nickname ideas for Mike. I think

00:02:28Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: that's a great idea.

00:02:30 Yeah. I think that needs to be like a, a regular segment on the podcast. It's like a rapid fire. Give Mike a nickname. Yeah.

00:02:39Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Like, I'm open to getting roasted as well. I know that came up a couple calls ago [00:02:45] if I, if you wanna take some heat off yourself there.

00:02:48Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Ah, ah, yeah, you do need a nickname too. I, I think you've kind of dodged that bullet.

00:02:56Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, yeah. When it's, when it's your name on the [00:03:00] dotted line, I guess you just kind of skate that.

00:03:03Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I don't know. Yeah. Congratulations. Yeah.

00:03:06Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. So what's new with you in the new year, my man?

00:03:09Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Oh, you know, just trying to survive. Had a great holiday and, uh, a nice, uh, nice new year [00:03:15] and, um, made a bunch of New Year's resolutions. I've already broken, like everybody has, I'm sure. Or what do we, two weeks into the new year here and, uh, not one is still standing on, on two legs, so, um, do you care to share one, like what was Yeah, yeah.

00:03:30 was definitely gonna eat healthier this year. That was the plan, but I had What happened there? Pizza from Taco Bell last night at 1:00 AM. We're like the fifth time this year. So we're only

00:03:44Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: [00:03:45] 12 days into the year. I, I mean, if we were gonna stick with one nickname, like the Burrito Chi Chung, like the sign shop, Mexican Food King.

00:03:59Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Mike's two [00:04:00] Loves of Taco Bell and Signage.

00:04:03Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Signage. I don't, I don't know. Yeah. Maybe there's like a sign coordinator position that you like Taco Bell Corporate.

00:04:11Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. I don't know. There you go. God, that'd be my dream job. Designing [00:04:15] Taco Bell signs. Holy shit.

00:04:19Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Bell, when you do the next store rebrand, call this guy hit me up. He, he does sign design for a living. Yeah.

00:04:29Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: So what were [00:04:30] the other ones? And I'll work for burritos. Um, gosh, let's see. Well, I was, I, I wanted to get in better shape. I, I said I was gonna start going for a walk every day after dinner, but when you eat a Mexican pizza at 1:00 AM it's hard to go for a walk after that.

00:04:45 resolution has just kind of like, also fallen by the wayside. Those are the major ones, but I think those are probably everybody's, and everybody can relate to that a little bit. I've got a few business related ones, you know, trying to put a little more focus and effort into, you know, some [00:05:00] marketing this year and social media need to bring on an assistant to help me with some, some office tasks.

00:05:13Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: So it's, it's interesting, like [00:05:15] you, you serve sign shops with your design work, but on the market, you know, like we've talked about the importance of marketing yet, You basically do no marketing for your signed design business,

00:05:28Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: It's true. I am, I, [00:05:30] I'm definitely a, um, not, not a practitioner of what I preach, I guess. Um, yeah, I do a little bit of marketing and, and I did put a little bit of effort into SEO in my website early last year, which definitely paid off. I mean, I get, [00:05:45] I, I, I'm in such a weird niche market. I mean, I, I, there's not a large pool of potential clients out there for me anyway.

00:06:00 get a decent amount of business off of it from that. And, and, you know, I ranked generally number one or fairly high up in Google results when you search for terms surrounding what I do.

00:06:15 post up on my Facebook page for the business, but I think the last one I did was like in August or something. So , I need to. You know, we, we've been so busy that it's, yeah, it's so, and I, I think that's probably something that every small business owner, [00:06:30] you know, it's a trap that we all fall into.

00:06:45 that's where my New Year's resolution comes in.

00:07:00

00:07:03Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I'm sure all of our listeners can relate to that. Like, I think every, almost every shop owner that we've ever talked to, like marketing, you say marketing and they. Like, oh, are we doing [00:07:15] marketing? Like, yeah. Yeah. Beyond the basics of having like a decent website, I feel like there's a lot of shops out there that aren't doing any marketing at all.

00:07:30 we would both suggest, I, I'm gonna speak for both of us here, is you're probably not gonna have the time to do it. Find somebody who can do it for you, outsource it, whether that's an agency or just an individual freelancer.

00:07:45 start as small as you need to. Uh, that's the other big thing. You don't have to jump into like a $5,000 retainer to have somebody do your marketing monthly. Just start with one small piece, you know, maybe a couple hundred

00:07:57Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: bucks. Yeah. Right. Or hire somebody to do your social media [00:08:00] for you or something.

00:08:15 marketers.

00:08:30 pay pay off in the long run.

00:08:45 somebody you trust and you know that you can afford and, and empower them to, you know, kind of take your brand and run with it.

00:08:58Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Well, You're gonna fix

00:08:59Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: that, [00:09:00] right? Totally. So what about you?

00:09:01Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: How, how are you starting out the year there's a wedding for that one man? All right. So I, I'm gonna date myself a little bit, but six or eight, 10 years ago, uh, before my wife and I got [00:09:15] together, I was really heavy into power lifting.

00:09:30 say the least. , like before I quit, I was, uh, I, I don't know the exact numbers and I, I'll just throw some out there. I don't, I'm sure there's people that , if, if you do [00:09:45] lift in the audience, don't take me at face value here, because my memory from 7, 8, 10 years ago is very fuzzy.

00:10:00 squat and like 4 35 on the deadlift. So not super heavy. Nothing to be ashamed about though. But I started back, I'm like two weeks in at this point and my head still is back in that place. But [00:10:15] as, as you've experienced like 10 years on your body is not with you anymore.

00:10:30 frustrated mentally with just where I'm at because there's kids that weigh, I, I don't know, probably 50 pounds less than me that are throwing up like 50, a hundred pounds more than me when I look across the gym at this [00:10:45] point.

00:10:46Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: And that's how Beret got hurt.

00:10:49Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, the, the next episode I will be wearing like a sling or a cast or something. , a

00:10:55Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: back brace or something. Yeah, no, that's welcome to, I guess we'll [00:11:00] call it middle age. I'm not gonna call you an old man yet cause you haven't crossed the 40 threshold like me, but yeah, , it sucks, doesn't it? Yeah, it's hard. I used to, I, I mean I know exactly how that is.

00:11:15 uh, I was, I was big into CrossFit for, for years cuz I, I got really going ho when I was right around 30 and decided I'm gonna join a rugby team. A rugby league. And, um, I got in pretty good shape. I was, I was in pretty good shape. I, I wasn't quite throwing up the numbers that you were, I wasn't [00:11:30] really quite just heavy power lifting as much as more like, you know, training.

00:11:39Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Like what? Yeah, that's uh, that's definitely one of those before [00:11:45] kids things. . Yeah,

00:11:48Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: like, like 10 minutes into the game, like several people had lost teeth in their, you know, blood everywhere. , like it was, I, I was shocked at how like, like I knew [00:12:00] Violet.

00:12:15 to my upstairs bathroom cuz I'm putting in a toilet in and it, I, I had to, I had to stop for the rest of the day.

00:12:30 lifting heavy things, they don't really go hand in hand and it sneaks up on you. So don't, don't overdo it.

00:12:35Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Yeah. That's a the yourself biggest thing. Uh, just like we, we talked about just like on marketing just a minute ago, you gotta start small , start slow

00:12:45 hey, I, I'm trying to, uh, be mindful of that. Definitely. My wife is helpful as well. Uh, she's very good at nagging me into going to the gym, so that's, that's been helpful. Yeah, I've got like a, my brother-in-law hooked me up with this four day a week program for the next [00:13:00] six weeks. I'll just give a shout out to those guys.

00:13:15 one of the signature athletes or sponsored athletes, I guess you could say. You know, he just did a meet back in December where he set like some state records as an am.

00:13:29Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: [00:13:30] Yeah.

00:13:30Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Pulling this up right now. Yeah, definitely. Pretty. Yeah, I think they're, the tagline is Fitness for the Misfits or something like that. I think so. uh, cool company. Cool dude. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Frank, his, uh, his name on there is Franken, Jan . It's, [00:13:45] it, clearly they've got some good nicknames going on.

00:13:48Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: out of their, Yeah, we need to study their, their approach there. Well, that's awesome. Good luck. I hope that you, a, don't hurt yourself and b, you know, get back into the groove and, and, uh, see some gains there. I remember, like I've, [00:14:00] I've, my whole life, I've started and stopped going to the gym.

00:14:15 it's like the worst.

00:14:17Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Yeah. So I like, I I, I'll say one more thing and then we'll get into like the actual topic today, but the, like before, probably like four or six weeks ago before I [00:14:30] started getting into this, I went to the gym with my brother-in-law and, uh, you know, we've always been very competitive with each other in the past, but, but like the friendly, competitive spirit.

00:14:45 was like, okay, like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna squat with you. And I did the best I could, and it, like, it definitely overdid and I, like, I could not walk for like three freaking, like, could not get up and down the stairs like physically. Mm-hmm. . [00:15:00] And like, I was texting him and he was just laughing at me the whole time, man.

00:15:10Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. No, it's that, that's the worst it go. It's weird. It [00:15:15] goes away pretty quickly. But like the first one too is just, it's brutal. Oh man. It's bad. I don't envy you. Well, good luck. So I gotta, gotta shake

00:15:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: off the, the cobwebs, but, uh, so that leads us into the, the topic of today, I think I was [00:15:30] working title for this one was like tech, tech that saves you time.

00:15:45 I've been in this industry is systems processes. I think I wanna touch a little on shop management software today because we've got the shop management software series that should be coming out pretty soon.

00:16:00 I don't know how you feel about that, Mike. Uh,

00:16:04Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: let's do it . That's a, that's a subject that's near and dear to my heart. Yeah.

00:16:12Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Give us, give us your, what's your [00:16:15] shop management software origin story like where did you guys start out with your old shop? Yeah. And this is, this is like zooming back into the past here,

00:16:25Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: but this is, this is flying way back into the past.

00:16:30 Yeah. Yeah. So for, you know, like every sign shop, you know, when you're smaller and you're starting out, everything's paper, everything's in your head, and you don't really have any good systems or processes. But as we grew, obviously, like everybody does, they figure out that they need figured out we needed something better than [00:16:45] paper work orders, you know, dry erase marker board, right?

00:17:00 particularly human on that. It's just, it's just the nature of the business. When you're busy and you're chasing paper, you're gonna lose stuff.

00:17:15 and, um, demoed it with our buddy Kevin, and. I thought it was amazing. I mean, it was like a game changer for, for us. Se Box was originally made for the Sign Ramma franchise, and then eventually they, you know, they made some tweak to it and [00:17:30] released it wide to, to any sign shop.

00:17:43Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: evolved quite a bit when it [00:17:45] was Kevin. Kevin basically shyed both of us then at that point. I know, cause I was, I was like customer number four or five on Shop Box

00:17:53Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. And I, I found Kevin on a post on Signs 1 0 1 about it actually to, I don't know if that's how you discovered him or [00:18:00] not, but Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent it was, yeah, we can, it all goes back to Signs 1 0 1. Yeah, so we, you know, we were with Sein Box for a long time and it was, it was definitely, um, an amazing program.

00:18:15 actually Shop Box wasn't. A thing yet it, it, it was still sign box. They hadn't evolved it over in the shop box yet. So that's what we used. And uh, it was, it was great. I mean, it, any, any program like that, I mean, it doesn't matter what it is, you know, all all of these programs have [00:18:30] strengthened weaknesses, but having something moving into any sort of system like that is better than not.

00:18:45

00:18:45Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I, I totally agree with you. I think if Peter were here, he would say the same thing, that in this day and age, um, especially with the, like the current economic climate, you know, where everybody's kind of uncertain [00:19:00] what's, what's going to happen.

00:19:15 non-industry specific software that will be even cheaper and you try to tie stuff together, but most of the investment is on the time side of things there.

00:19:30

00:19:30Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: And that's, that's like, that's a really important topic or, or point I think that needs to be beaten like a dead horse a little bit, is it is an investment. It's not an expense. And, you know, you and I have been through, I'll say the ringer [00:19:45] with, with these programs and we've talked to a lot of people who.

00:20:00 $500 a month or whatever, whatever the cost for whatever app you're looking at is, they just, you know, they immediately shut down when they hear a price like that.

00:20:15 but it only takes one lost order that you've gotta eat per month to more than cover that The efficiency that these, these programs create for your shop is definitely, it's, it's next level, and, and that's, that's where you, you make that money up, that's where it becomes an investment.

00:20:30 gonna make that money back multiple times over every month and just the amount of time that you save, not tearing the off spart trying to find a work order that's slipped between two desks or something. You know? I mean, it's, it's absolutely an investment in, in time and efficiency that, that will pay [00:20:45] back.

00:20:57Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: We heard that argument a lot. Yeah. [00:21:00] Like, uh, I always, I do, like I heard you say, spend money to make money.

00:21:08Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: It's definitely true. In this case, I, yeah, I, I agree. I, I don't like it , but like, sometimes it needs to be said though. And this is one [00:21:15] of those cases where I, it's, it's money well spent for sure.

00:21:18Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. So the next thing that I want to say is, if you're in this mode right now, you're looking for shop management software, like the, the biggest thing that I could tell you is you're not [00:21:30] going to find a perfect.

00:21:45 in the shop previously, you know, I've spent thousands and thousands of hours like scouring the internet before. These things were a little more visible than they are now.

00:22:00 from web to print, to mis, you know, it was all, it was like the wild, wild west kind of 10 years ago of like anybody was calling themselves anything and you had to no screenshots on the website. You had to sit through demos and endure [00:22:15] hour long conversations with sales reps before you can even get a look at the product.

00:22:19Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: the same as it is

00:22:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: in in some aspects. Yeah, I've, I've always hated that part of no screenshots, but there to emphasize there is no one [00:22:30] perfect solution and to, to get, to invest too much time in this is not going to pay you back in returns. So yeah, , do your due diligence, definitely, uh, [00:22:45] look at your available options out there.

00:23:00 perfect system or, or it having the perfect functionality, you know, figure out what it is your, your core set of things that you need for your shop are, and a lot of those should be shared across most of the audience.

00:23:15 which solution best fits that and. Go for it. Pull the trigger.

00:23:20Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. Uh, that's a, that's another really good point. I mean, that's, it's something that , I think you and I have battled quite, quite extensively in a former life. Is, is the argument, oh, well this isn't [00:23:30] exactly the way we do things.

00:23:45 isn't a good product. And we're talking about off the shelf canned programs that aren't custom built to your business. And, and, and there are no two sign shops. I can say this with a hundred percent absolute certainty because I've been in hundreds of sign shops [00:24:00] and worked with hundreds more owners in my life.

00:24:15 when you're looking at off-the-shelf software that wasn't customized to your shop, you're going to have to make some concessions to it.

00:24:30 your employees are gonna hate it. I mean, it, it requires flexibility and it requires you being just a little bit on the realistic side and, and accepting that you may have to adjust, you know, your procedures a little bit to, you know, to fall more in line with the way whatever program you're looking at works.[00:24:45]

00:24:56Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, I, I think the best way to look at it is like a marriage. [00:25:00] Right. Oh, totally.

00:25:13Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: You put the address where people can send hate [00:25:15] mail at the end of the year. ,

00:25:18Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna have to make sure Ashley doesn't listen to this one.

00:25:30 everything in your marriage, , uh, or you know, go with the flow and definitely compromise. Compromise. That's it. Secret to successful use of shop management and marriages everywhere. [00:25:45] It's

00:25:46Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: a secret to life. So

00:25:47Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I, I think, you know what, let's take a step back and let's just kind of like, what are the options for a shop out there of hey, And we're, we're dead focused [00:26:00] on improving systems and processes.

00:26:15 what I would retitle this one. You know, your shop operating system. Yeah, there you go.

00:26:20Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah, so I like that we've that name actually.

00:26:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I like that too. So we've got off the shelf industry specific software, right? We've got [00:26:30] two, which would be stuff like Trello or uh, monday.com, Asana, Basecamp. How many of these would we run into over the years? Thousands, you know, kind of your project management software, [00:26:45] c r M software, and you try to bolt all these things together, or you've got door number three, the really fun and expensive door building your own solution.

00:26:57Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I think you've got all the bases covered. Yeah. I mean, that's, [00:27:00] that's pretty much, yeah, that's pretty much it. Yeah. Where you want, usually I, where you start. Well, I mean, if you're, if you're moving to, if you're, if you're thinking about this topic in general and you think, okay, I, I need something, I, I would say chances are pretty good.

00:27:15 already using, or at least have tried, like some of the generic off the shelf, you know, like you said, like Trello or monday.com or one of one of those. I mean, I, I, I know a lot of shops have at. Trialed those, those apps to see if they would work. And you know, [00:27:30] they've, you know, they've heard other, other shops are using Trello, so let's check it out and see.

00:27:38Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, I'll be the fun fact guy, like I even built, I think I put together like a sample [00:27:45] Trello board once upon a time that people can download and copy. I'm, I'm not sure if that's still on the site somewhere, but somebody will Google it and find it.

00:28:00 know you're a, you're a huge Trello fan, so like, what's your take on this for like a sign shop?

00:28:05Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. I, I love Trello. Well, I love Trello on one hand, right? Like it's, it's very limiting in some areas, but what it does, it does really well.

00:28:15 I mean, if you've never seen Trello, it's just kind of a, a drag and drop card based system, and you can, it's, it's super easy to customize. You can put together your own job boards and kind of flow workflow for different types of work. I think Trello is fantastic. If, if you [00:28:30] haven't looked at Trello in a few years, I recommend people take another look at it.

00:28:45 to string 'em all together, you, you can, you can bang out a pretty.

00:29:00 Um, so it's basically like, think of a, your old school paperwork order system where that paperwork order follows the job around the shop and you've gotta physically, you know, hand it to the next person.

00:29:15 so for a large busy shop, I think that's where Trello or really any of these off-the-shelf apps are gonna break down. It's just the fact that they, they lack some of that sign industry specific automation that we require.

00:29:30 know, they don't wanna spend a fortune. And they don't want to go move to, you know, one of the, the big industry specific programs. I always recommend people start with Trello. And I think you can, you can make Trello work for at least a few years as you grow until it's ready to graduate to something bigger.

00:29:45 support that

00:29:45Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: a hundred percent. I, I think, hey, like, you gotta start somewhere and there's a lot of things that you, you don't know at the beginning. Uh, and this was, I think this was like the gospel when we were [00:30:00] at the former software company, , uh, that like you gotta start somewhere and you know, if you spend a ton of time like analyzing and.

00:30:15 and, and trying to create this perfect workflow that we've already told you does not exist by the time you get done and you launch that thing, the market has shifted. Your team has shifted, like the assumptions that you had at the very beginning, you find out were later wrong.

00:30:30 Trello is, is like a super low barrier to entry. The same with some of these other ones. Like we could substitute Trello for monday.com or Asana, or, or, or some of those other ones, like they all have similar functionality. The biggest piece [00:30:45] that I think they're missing is probably like the database of like, Hey, here's all of our customers, here's all of our contacts.

00:31:00 Um, right. But, but is there, are there any other pros, cons you can think of for like Trello or these off the shelf generic

00:31:07Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: tools? Well, I, I mean, there's a lot of cons too. I mean, and, and that's mostly just because they're generic and off the shelf, and so they require [00:31:15] you as the user to essentially to build the tool yourself.

00:31:30 forgot about Air Table. You're looking Airtable

00:31:31Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Guru ,

00:31:32Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: uh, yeah, it's True.

00:31:45 and drop card view just like Trello has. So air table's got a lot of advantages and honestly, if I were to like, so Trello is like the very bottom as far as like basic functionality goes.

00:32:00 basic and simple where, and like you said, there's no database attached to it, so there's no a list of your customers or you know, any of that stuff. I think if you wanted to step up and functionality.

00:32:12Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: and I agree with that. I, I totally forgot about Air [00:32:15] Table. You know, I've been neck deep in something else here lately, but , but yeah, I've, I've made thousands of dollars doing Air Table and Zapier, Trello, pipe Drive Consulting, so mm-hmm. . Yeah, air Table's a great solution.

00:32:30 it's basically a build your own app. So if you are the tinkerer type, it's perfect for you. You know, if you're a small shop and you've got opinionated ideas on how you wanna run things, Airtable is nice because it does let you build it your way. Obviously, you wanna start with like [00:32:45] a, a good foundation there.

00:33:00 out of it.

00:33:00Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah, I think that'd be great. Air table's, I, I feel like Airtable is overlooked by a lot of people.

00:33:15 lot of the way Airtable operates is it is kind of in line with the, with the way the sign comp signed company would operate.

00:33:23Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: sign shop. I, I, I think their Trojan horse is like the spreadsheet view. It's like a mm-hmm. , it looks exactly like Excel, but it's a, [00:33:30] a full fledged database. Mm-hmm. . So it enforces like, Hey, if this is a a number field, you gotta stick a number in there and they won't let you do anything else.

00:33:45 type of stuff. Yeah. Uh, and then the other nice thing, they do have an API as well, which makes it easy if, if you're trying to create some. Custom wild stuff as I've done for clients in the past, uh, which is both [00:34:00] interesting and also comes with its own drop acts, but it does have that API

00:34:04Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: available.

00:34:15 and then all my active jobs. And then when I was done with the job, you set up an integration where I could click a button and it would automatically send all the data over to QuickBooks and create an invoice for me automatically over there, which was awesome cuz it saved a huge amount of time.

00:34:30 paste or transcribe that job information over into an invoice and QuickBooks is tedious for me because I in a month could do a hundred jobs. Yeah. You know, and that's the, you know, they're all small jobs that it's, it's a lot of copying pasting in the QuickBooks where otherwise I can just hit this button and it just shoots it right over.

00:34:45 me an insane amount of time. I stopped using it. ?

00:34:48Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yes. . Greener pastures. Greener pastures.

00:34:52Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. Uh, yeah. But it was, it was great. I loved it. It was fantastic until I found this other app that I'm using that, that is actually purpose built for what I do. Um, but yeah, I [00:35:00] mean, it was, there's so much you can do in Airtable and I, I think you and I just scratched the surface with what you did for me.

00:35:15 tool. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say Trello and then Airtable and

00:35:19Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: then the next leap. Hey, let's do these in order of like investment, I guess. So let's move to industry specific, off the shelf software.

00:35:30 like custom for the end. Because, because the, I think that conversation's gonna be pretty short. .

00:35:37Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Custom's expensive, and you're gonna end up with a carbon copy of what's already on the market. , we've seen it happen.

00:35:43Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Seen it happen. All right, [00:35:45] so industry specific software. If we go sign industry focused, we've got shop box.

00:35:54Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: serious

00:35:55Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Sign tracker. Sign tracker. Square Coil. Square [00:36:00] Coil. Is this for Coil? Um, used to be called vs. Sign. Oh,

00:36:03Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: that's right. Yeah, it's a Square Coil. Corbridge, Sirius. Shop Box, sign Tracker estimate. What are we missing? I,

00:36:11Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I don't know. Hey, like half of those haven't been updated in the last five years, I would [00:36:15] argue, but.

00:36:22Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I, I think estimate's an awesome program for what it is. It's fairly affordable. It's not very expensive. It takes a little bit of time to set up, but it's not very [00:36:30] complex to set up. Um, estimate lacks any, any real like job management, job tracking functionality.

00:36:45 hope they're not listening to this. I mean, it, it's definitely in need of like a UI update, but damn, if it ain't the most, the most like user-friendly, like powerful little sign pro pricing software I've ever seen.

00:37:00 go to my grave, like being a, an estimate cheerleader because it's, it's a great little app for what it is. It's not a, if you're looking for like a, an all-inclusive, like shop management, like a, like a true e r p. You know, enterprise resource management type [00:37:15] program.

00:37:19Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: yeah. And maybe that's where we need to go next is kind of qualify this, right? Like, some of these do, well, all these things have their strengths and weaknesses, but mm-hmm. , like what you need to clarify for yourself [00:37:30] on shop management software, mis, e r p, whatever you wanna call it, is like, which of those pieces within, within that are most important to you?

00:37:45 You know, is pricing like the biggest thing or is order management job management kind of the biggest piece? Or, you know, is it something else like proofing or collaboration? You know, but it usually, by far, like the two biggest buckets that we've saw or [00:38:00] we've seen were what pricing and

00:38:04Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: manage, like job manage job, job management.

00:38:15 using paper work orders and dry erase boards. And that's okay if you are, I don't, you know, we're not here to tell you that that's not okay and a lot of shops just need to solve the pricing problem only and, and estimates a, you know, it's a pretty slick little tool for that.

00:38:30 that's, you know, a little more, a little more robust would probably be What, what do you think? Sign Tracker? I don't, yeah. Yeah.

00:38:36Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I, I haven't looked at Sign Tracker Tracker specifically in the last six months. Like, usually I try to keep up to speed on all [00:38:45] these mm-hmm.

00:39:00 Shop management series that we're planning is, is not just for all the community members to kinda get a, an unbiased look at all these tools, but also for me to stay up to speed, things move

00:39:10Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: fast, so, yeah.

00:39:15 Seems like a lot of people use it. It's been a while since I've looked at it as well. I looked at it for running my design business and it's really geared more towards production oriented places, so it wasn't a good fit for me, but people seem to like it.

00:39:30 like estimating and stuff built into it, versus more just production management. But I know it's not like a, like, as, as fully featured and robust as some of the other, you know, true e r P systems out there.

00:39:39Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. And you

00:39:39Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: may not need that, depending on, yeah.

00:39:45 smaller side, maybe under 10 employees that just really need more of a, a really good way to track jobs through the shop and move away from paper. Seem to really enjoy using sign tracker for that. So, yeah. All

00:39:54Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: right. Then we've got what serious.

00:40:00 that I experimented with back in the day.

00:40:02Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Sirius is old school. They've been around for a while and

00:40:05Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: yeah, and they got bought out by Corbridge at one point. I'm not even sure. Is is, are they still selling Sirius number one? Hey, we [00:40:15] should look up that before we start talking

00:40:16Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: about it.

00:40:30 the original version was we set it up. It was

00:40:33Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: serious sms.

00:40:37Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: It did a lot. It was a power of a program, but it was difficult to use. It was clunky because it had to be installed on a server. I

00:40:43Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: remember sitting through the [00:40:45] demo of, I still remember it to this day, and this has been like 10, 12 years ago, like sitting through the demo and I'm like, shit, this does everything we need, like all our worries are eased at this.

00:41:00 to get SQL Server set up and running correctly. And then I was, I spent an hour on the phone with tech support, uh, not knocking the product, but the installation process just totally turned us off of it. And then the, like, the usage, like [00:41:15] if, if my boss and I were into it, but the rest of the team, we failed to get on board with it.

00:41:30 helping things either.

00:41:31Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah, and I, I can't speak to the new version. The, the cloud version they call control. I, I believe it's,

00:41:39Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: so it's, it is not actually cloud, the database is in the cloud.

00:41:45 computer. So that, is that how it works? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I would put Sirius in the like, Hey, it's an option, but they like off in the corner,

00:41:56Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: um, ,

00:41:57Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: let's see. A lot of shops use it. [00:42:00] Yeah. Yeah. It's still, still popular. Uh,

00:42:03Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: yeah. Functionality wise. Yeah. Sirius definitely, you know, it, it charge

00:42:06Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: it up Mike so we don't get those cease and desist. Yeah, that's what I'm

00:42:09Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: trying to do. Just shut your mouth for a second. Okay. Stop talking. Brian . No, I, I mean I used it [00:42:15] extensively at one point and it, it, from a pricing standpoint, it works really well.

00:42:30 clunky. It's the US user interface isn't desperate to even update. It's a little outdated now.

00:42:45 But I don't, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't count serious out as a contender either.

00:42:53Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Go back to your needs. Not, not our needs, not what everybody else needs Especi. Right. And, and, and it's especially

00:42:59Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: not, [00:43:00] oh, go ahead. I was gonna, I think it's really important that people understand too, that Bryants and I, like we eat, breathe, sleep, shop management, science software.

00:43:15 stuff with a more critical eye than some people do. And we're gonna, we're gonna pick things like the user interface apart and like, oh man, that button should be over there and this is a terrible shade of gray and stuff like that.

00:43:30 huge, huge software snobs and we need to admit that to ourselves and to our audience right now. .

00:43:36Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Agreed. Agreed. . All right. So I think that brings us into like the next batch.

00:43:45 but I don't know enough about square coil. I, I, I've, I've seen demos of it when it was vs sign. I don't know enough about it. Uh, that's one I look forward to learning more about because I, I saw some people bragging on it. [00:44:00] And, and to be fair, like in all of the sign industry Facebook groups, there's people bragging on each one of these solutions, uh, that I've seen.

00:44:15 industry Facebook group, but just because Joe says it's a, a great software and it changed their shop for the better, doesn't mean it's gonna be the right solution for you. So, right. Let that be The overarching theme of this conversation is none of these are [00:44:30] perfect.

00:44:41Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: and, and I think Square, I'm looking at Square Coil on Rally right now. I mean, it, it, [00:44:45] it looks like they've made some pretty, pretty hefty improvements to it since the last time I looked at it.

00:44:52Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: too, which would be, I don't know if I see, yeah, I've got the website up. I don't know if I see anything like sales lead tracking or, or [00:45:00] like opportunities on the, like the front end to manage the, the sales funnel.

00:45:12Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: bucket there. Yeah, I, I think that's more of like [00:45:15] where you start getting into, you know, in, in the weeds feature set comparison where, you know, one might have more of a front end CRM type functionality where the other one is, you know, heavier on the back end or something, but looks like they have inventory document storage, [00:45:30] which is nice photo storage.

00:45:45

00:45:45Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: let's start with Corbridge. For the longest time, they were obviously our biggest competitor there at the, at Chatbox.

00:46:00 no longer affiliated with any of these companies. Absolutely. Uh, Corbridge, I know. Here's what I know about Corbridge. They've got a new version in the works. I don't know if it's released yet or not. I saw a preview of it [00:46:15] in Las Vegas back in October.

00:46:27Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I I think that's an important point because you, you mentioned a [00:46:30] second ago that you had a heck of a time getting your employees at your shop to buy in the, the Sirius because like, like whatever program you choose, it's gotta be easy for the users to, to get in there and do their job in.

00:46:45 your, your dude running your, your wide format printer, just he can't get in there and see what he needs to do and easily and quickly find the information he needs, then you got a pretty big problem on your hand. And that's, I mean, that's something that we saw quite often with, with shop box users as well, is they had a [00:47:00] hard time getting employee buy-in on the system because it was, you know, set up too complicated or, or for whatever reason.

00:47:15 you definitely need to go back to the drawing board For sure. So that, I think the cleanliness of the user interface, the ease of na, you know, navigation is, is a, a really critical part of the decision making process in this because, you know, it's, it's gotta be user friendly, not just to the [00:47:30] person setting it up, but to, you know, the people on the shop floor that are gonna use it to Yeah, yeah.

00:47:45 once it's in action.

00:47:46Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I agree. Yeah. I like, I didn't imagine we'd be weaving tips into this as we were going through the list, but yeah, that's, that's like tip number one is like bring your employees into this search process.

00:48:00 employees that are gonna be like, leading their departments inside this software? Because again, it's a, a marriage, you're gonna be. In it for a while until you decide to annul or divorce or , [00:48:15] just whatever, call the cease and desist letters. Send them on . Um, but yeah, it involve the key employees in that decision and, and give them, you know, ultimately it's your shop.

00:48:30 they've gotta get it in line with that. But, you know, involve them in that process and get their feedback throughout the process. Because again, the last thing you want is to invest three months of your time, six months of your time. We've had, you know, we've worked with shops that [00:48:45] took 12 months or more to get something like this implemented

00:48:48Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: and then they launch it and then like everybody refuses to use it.

00:48:52Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: That's the last thing that you want, that you've been paying monthly or you know, upfront, whatever you pay 20, $30,000. And then you get [00:49:00] into the software and nobody wants to use it. Mm-hmm. involve those key people in that decision making process on the front end. And that way, even if they, you don't go with the one that they choose or they thought was the best fit, at least they've felt they've [00:49:15] had a say in it and you know, they've been involved in the process.

00:49:30 he just felt like he wasn't being listened to anymore. Mm-hmm. .

00:49:33Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's, that's, that's really important.

00:49:45 alienate employees and make them feel not important, not part of the bigger picture. And this, you know, this is, this is a tool that they're gonna have to use. So it, it is, it is important that they're able to use it and, and understand it and, and are comfortable with it.

00:50:00 looks like they've made some, some really nice improvements to this. And so the last time I saw it as well, uh, it looks like a really nice user interface. Seems like it's got some great reporting. Did you find the new version? I don't know if this is the new version or not.

00:50:15 it's, it's been a while since I've looked at Corbridge at least a year or two. So

00:50:18Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I'll make sure we link out to all these in the show notes as well.

00:50:21Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And then we got shot box. Of course we gotta talk about that one Shop box is, as I mentioned earlier, it's been around for a while.

00:50:30 was, it was, I, I, I think Sirius was probably the first, you know, app like this to hit the market. But not long after Sein V and then Shop Box came out. So Shop Box has had a long history in the industry. It is, You know, Brian and I, obviously, because we were both [00:50:45] employees of Shop Box for a long time, we know it extremely well, better than the other programs.

00:51:00 know, a lot of what you see in Shop Box is a hundred percent user, you know, user driven as well. So it, it's a, it's a pretty good end-to-end, you know, solution.

00:51:11Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I'll give it two thumbs up, man. Like, like yo, I and I, [00:51:15] I will say like, I invested a lot of time in Shop Box, obviously like you can't unlearn that type of thing, or like, as it is hard for me to detach some of. Like personal feelings from some of it, [00:51:30] but those things aside, it's a, it's a pretty good piece of software.

00:51:45 version, which is, you know, mostly for smaller shops. You know, the job management features aren't as robust as the pro version, but the express version does have a nice redesign user interface.

00:52:00 user interface is high on the list for you, the express version is worth a look. Uh, as much as I know right now the pro version of Shox is still on the older interface, and every time I talk to the team or, uh, you know, [00:52:15] see email newsletters, the, the new version of Pro is still in the works. I don't know if they're selling that to

00:52:21Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: customers yet.

00:52:30 version 1.0 of the new version is, is pretty stable and up and running now.

00:52:33Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I don't know if you went to their website and said, Hey, I want Sha Fox Pro, which version you're gonna get of Pro?

00:52:42Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: or I think it's all new one now. I think people are using the [00:52:45] new one I think. I think a lot of like the more like, like inventory stuff like that. I think some of those features are still being worked on. So some of the features aren't available in New Pro yet, but I believe like the basic core functionality is now, is now on the new ui.

00:53:00 anymore. So what do I know? ?

00:53:03Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: We're both just guessing here, which could be dangerous for the podcast,

00:53:07Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: but I mean, at the end of the day, like the functionality is the same regardless what the user interface looks like. And, and yeah.

00:53:15 Shop box's pricing engine is really good. It is a learning curve to the pricing engine, and I think that's probably true of all of these, but I mean, there's a little bit of a, a learning curve to getting your products set up and functioning the way you want them, but it is extremely powerful.

00:53:30 be with anything. But, um, you know, if you're, if you're good at writing, like Excel style, Excel style, Formulas, you know, you can, you can really open up a whole other world of functionality. And from a pricing side of things, the shop box has a really, a pretty good job of [00:53:45] tracking production as well.

00:54:00 everything is, is pretty slick.

00:54:15 break out and, and like, you know, schedule each individual production operation that a job will go through from start to finish.

00:54:30 little bit differently. There's not, you know, one industry standard consistent way that every single shop schedules their work or breaks out their work and, and distributes it out.

00:54:38Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Google Calendar. Google Calendar. Yeah.

00:54:41Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: So they, or Outlook they've got,

00:54:43Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: if you're using Outlook, [00:54:45] just stop the call right now. Like, yeah, we don't just plant that flag. , go away. .

00:54:52Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Um, so, you know, again, like there's, there's, there's, there's gonna be some give and take with all these apps for sure.

00:55:00 expectations of what, you know, what a piece of software can actually do and what. What you still need to do outside of it. Like, you know, maybe you do need to schedule on a calendar or something, you know, Google calendar instead of, of using the, the, the shot boxes built in scheduling functionality.

00:55:15 yeah,

00:55:15Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: let's go to the final tier and then, and then I wanna back up and do like some, I want to like have you give your advice and I'll like, give a couple of nuggets on choosing and implementing shop management software. But the next [00:55:30] tier, what, like, and like building a custom solution, like having a developer build you a custom solution.

00:55:45 gonna be, no, basically that's the end of story. Uh, I will, I will put like an asterisk beside it. The only way that you should consider. Is if you are already on one of these programs, like we've just [00:56:00] discussed, like Shop, Fox, Corbridge, Sirius, whatever, and you are hitting the limitations of that, and you have sat down and thought about what functionality you need out of the next system, and you have a detailed [00:56:15] list of here's everything that we need.

00:56:30 on the low end to half a million dollars on the high end, maybe even more. You know, I'd, I'd hesitate. Put a cap on it because it, I'm sure somebody like Signs 365 or some of these other, like [00:56:45] large trade printers have built all these systems from scratch and you know, you've seen how kind of slick their website is.

00:56:59Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. [00:57:00] It, and, and we've been that we've, we've had several shop box users that decided they're gonna build their own system and we had several that were trying to build their own system and threw their hands up and said, screw this, we're just gonna buy something off the shelf and come, come back the other way.

00:57:15 Yeah. It is, it is like, like those numbers that Brian is throwing out are not an exaggeration. They. Do not underestimate how complicated that project is. It's, it's not like, Hey, I'm gonna build a spreadsheet that, you know, calculates some prices for me. I mean, there's a lot of [00:57:30] functionality there and it's a, it's an enormous project that's gonna take a number of people a lot of time to get done, and it's gonna cost you a fortune.

00:57:45 Walmart, you, you can justify that cost and it's probably money well spent for you because of, you know, an operation of that size. They need custom software that's dialed in for exactly the way they operate.

00:58:00 really not an option when you're operating at that level? But, I mean, let's be honest, probably the president of the guest coast not listening to this podcast, and, and it's probably, you know, not looking at shop box anyway.

00:58:15 while it may seem like a viable option to you, It's not, and don't, you know, just get it outta your mind right now, like it's not gonna happen. I, I've, I've got some firsthand experience with this as well. I know a shop that operates in that 10 million range who has been trying to have a [00:58:30] custom system built for them for years and years and years now, and, They demoed shop box and they felt like, you know, this is just too cheap for what we need.

00:58:45 on a custom software system that doesn't even come close to the functionality of Shop Box. So like, you know, tread lightly. Yeah. Yeah.

00:58:52Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: And if you do get, like, you talk to a developer and they quote you something stupid, like $20,000 to build this [00:59:00] run.

00:59:15 these platforms, like Shop Box or Corbridge, or Sign Tracker, what have you, it's gonna be way more than $30,000

00:59:30 Yeah. So build your own custom software. Know unless you're over 10 million in annual revenue, and then think about it. That's gonna be,

00:59:40Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: and even then, I think I, yeah, then it's a stretch. Yeah.

00:59:43Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: That's gonna be the, the [00:59:45] better side shop. Flying in the sand there.

01:00:00 somebody is like shopping this arena right now, they're thinking about, you know, switching systems or implementing a system where they have done, or they're trying to go from Trello to something else, whatever.

01:00:15 fame advice in

01:00:16Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: this? Oh, right, okay. Number one, and I, we, we already beat on this a little bit, but. Be realistic with your expectations and be prepared to compromise a little bit because we are talking about off-the-shelf software that wasn't built for your shop. So you're [01:00:30] going to have to be willing to bend a little bit.

01:00:45 are unwilling to do that, then this whole endeavor is going to be a failure for you.

01:01:00 it's gonna be a bad outcome for everybody involved. That's, that's number one, like a hundred percent.

01:01:15 it's gotta be this way and this way. Exactly. And if it doesn't do it that way, then this is the program that's junk and I'm not gonna use it.

01:01:25Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna jump on there and say accountants as well. Oh. And then I'm, I'm just gonna get a whole [01:01:30] new crew of people hate us, . You

01:01:32Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: know what, let's let the accountants send all the hate mail they want because they need to be kept out of this discussion.

01:01:45 All of these programs that we're talking about are gonna be fine. From an accounting standpoint, a hundred percent every one of them works fine from an accounting standpoint.

01:02:00 app in the QuickBooks or something, and they freak out about it. But if your accountant has that big of a problem with it, to hire a new accountant, like just full stop.

01:02:15 I know that sounds harsh, but it's true. I mean, Brian and I have dealt with this a lot, and your accountant will be your worst enemy, in your biggest nightmare of these programs if you let 'em.

01:02:30 Um, gosh, what? I'm trying to think what else. I mean, I, to me those are, that's like the biggest one is just being realistic about what

01:02:37Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I'll, I'll go and then if you think of something else.

01:02:38Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah, let me think about some more while you're talking.

01:02:40Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: yeah. So, uh, like, number one on my list is gonna be a hundred [01:02:45] percent complete, not a hundred percent complete, is what I'm gonna say. Like, you think, Hey, I need, that's good. One need to be a hundred percent complete to launch this thing. That's one of the biggest issues that I, uh, I was at Shop Box seven years, [01:03:00] probably one of the top issues, uh, that prevented people from going live or getting value out of their software.

01:03:15 it's never gonna be, the pricing's never gonna be perfect. The scheduling is never gonna be perfect. Your own workflow on top of the tool is never gonna be perfect.

01:03:30 implementing this should be what is the smallest piece that we can complete in six weeks? Like, how much can we get set up within six weeks? And I would, you know, honestly, if it were me and I was leading the charge, I would want to bring that back inside [01:03:45] like four weeks.

01:04:00 we said earlier, you don't know what you don't know. And. Until you're actually using your chosen software, you're not gonna know the downfalls or the workarounds or, or even, [01:04:15] you know, just the best way to do something until you're actually neck deep and using it.

01:04:30 Corel draw or how to design a sign. But until you're actually working on a design and you're neck deep into it, like you're not, you're not gonna fully understand what's going on.

01:04:45 And it like, uh, I'll like kick that with the pricing side of it. Like, , if you're waiting until all of your products and pricing are. Don't, you know, pick a, a few core products, um, because that, that is one of the biggest challenges of all these [01:05:00] softwares is getting it set up and running.

01:05:15 these five products are now okay to price inside the software and then use as much as the rest of it as you can.

01:05:22Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. I, I think that's, I think that's good. Kind of, kind of do a phased rollout. I, I would say the, the majority of the users, at least the shop box [01:05:30] users that I've worked with over the years that get it implemented and they get up and running and, and they're using it for a while, I, I would, I would say that the vast majority of them eventually over time will come back to the table and say, okay, we've been using this for a while.

01:05:45 figured out what works and what doesn't work well for us, and now we need to kind of go back to the drawing board and, and sort of. Start rebuilding what we've already done and fixing a lot of things and implementing a program like this is going to be, you know, it needs to be looked at as a, as a very long-term [01:06:00] project.

01:06:15 introducing new products and pricing is changing, or you change the way you do something.

01:06:30 it until, in my mind it's done, you will never, you'll never get it launched.

01:06:43Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: You're gonna beat Matthew [01:06:45] McConaughey.

01:06:45Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. Living in Wish I could do a Matthew McConaughey voice. All right.

01:06:53Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: All right. I don't know if you thought of one. I got one more laid on. Oh, I thought I did. And let me [01:07:00] try to read my notes. Oh, man.

01:07:01Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: That, that just popped into my head is, is looking at the, you know, comparing features of these programs too. I mean, uh, you know, it's easy to look at like a feature comparison chart and, and, and try and pick the one that has the most features or the best features or whatever.

01:07:15 you know, ki kind of in the same vein as, as is only, you know, rolling it out in phases and picking the most important part. I mean, don't buy based on, which has just, you know, the most, the most features, like checks the most boxes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because chances are pretty good. , [01:07:30] even though it has a lot of these features, you, you might not need 'em, you might not want 'em.

01:07:45 paying for it. So now I've gotta use this inventory tracking feature.

01:08:00 Don't feel compelled to use every single bell and whistle in these programs just because they're there.

01:08:15 That's not necessary. You know, keep it as simple as you can.

01:08:19Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna give that one like a, a headline and like, say that these programs should be looked at as like, accelerate, like , like, you know, [01:08:30] or like a, a force multiplier or something.

01:08:45 to the tool that you select. Like, these guys aren't gonna give you a business in a box. That's like the, one of the other caveats is

01:09:00 Um, and if, if you've got a, a failure or a big problem, In your team or within your like informal like soft systems, like working with teammates or you know, like, Hey, this information's not [01:09:15] getting communicated, shop or Corbridge or any of these other tools, they're not gonna fix that.

01:09:25Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: a light on it. Yeah.

01:09:27Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. And then you know it's gonna be a [01:09:30] frustrat. Endeavor for

01:09:31Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: everybody. Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good point too, is I, I think a lot of people go into this with the expectation that it is going to, to make fundamental foundational changes to their business.

01:09:45 to run a business and it requires you to be, you know, active participant in that. Yeah. It's just a tool.

01:09:49Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: It's, it's not anything more Exactly. It's, it's not a business in a box. Like, you can't sign up for one of these thinking, they're gonna have pricing worked out for you.

01:10:00 database, which we may or may not have had a hand in years ago. Um, but it, like, it's, it's not going to be. Ready to go out of the box and it, it's not gonna run your business for you. The other one that I had, and I [01:10:15] couldn't read my handwriting, that's how bad it is when you're in conversations and you're talking to your sales reps or you know, even if you're on one of these softwares already, you're gonna be, uh, privy to like, Hey, this update is coming [01:10:30] soon.

01:10:45 doesn't exist. Just put it out of the back of your mind because, and I will say it's, it is kind of a mix like there, there may be some fault of the company here, but it's also software development and being knee deep in that environment [01:11:00] and working at other companies.

01:11:15 and, you know, the, the architecture of the software is gonna matter there as well. Like the, the choices that were made years ago when they were building the software affect the features that they're working on now.

01:11:30 we're gonna have this in six weeks. And, and that is not like ironclad. If somebody tells you that on a call or an email, it's conjecture, it's a guess. Just do not tell your team. Do not pass. Go. Do not collect [01:11:45] $200. Don't put any stock in it and don't base any of your decisions on it.

01:12:00 we're we, we're working on it. Now it's in beta, or whatever. Just put it out of the back of your mind. That's, that's not a checkbox, you know, it may be in six months, it could be 18 months.

01:12:10Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. When I entered that world of, of software development working for Shop Box, [01:12:15] that was a, that was an interesting lesson I learned as well. Cause I'm so used to the sign industry where everything is, is, is rush. Everything has a deadline. Everything is right. Now, now, now even, even for the biggest, most long-term sign projects, I mean, they still have a deadline that gets done.

01:12:30 predictable and that's, software development is just a whole other ballgame. And it is this glacially slow process. Especially when you're talking about apps that are as complex and big as the ones that we are. I mean, these are not, there's not simple things in, in, in every, like, like [01:12:45] Brian said, every feature, every little tweak that they make to it has bar reaching implications on the back end of that software that is a user you don't see, but they take.

01:13:00 it's a recipe for, it's a slow process. , I'm, I'm fairly certain, you know what, I, I started at Shop Box like what, seven years ago now?

01:13:15 underdevelopment. So, and that's, no, you know, we're not pointing the finger at the software company by saying that it's just the nature of nature of the nature

01:13:20Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: of the piece.

01:13:30 it, it's not like, Hey, Mike has gone through and exquisitely designed, here's where all the nuts and bolts need to go. Uh, they're It's more into like building the airplane as you're in the air as

01:13:41Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: you're flying it.

01:13:45 you're gonna find for software development is, Building the airplane while you're flying it.

01:13:49Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: All right, I got one more exclamation point and then we will like mic drop this one. If, if you're the owner of the shop, uh, and you know, probably [01:14:00] what, like maybe 80, 90% of the people listening probably are.

01:14:15 I will say this. There are some conditions to this. Maybe you're not involved in the day-to-day anymore, then maybe you could kind of take a backseat in this process.

01:14:30 this project, implementing shop management software is going to take a large investment of your time. It is not something that you can hand off to a junior level team member. Or somebody new to the [01:14:45] industry and expect good results.

01:14:59Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: for saying [01:15:00] that. I, I can't believe I, I forgot that one. I, that is, that is an excellent point. Quick anecdote. I had a fairly large sign company when I was in the shop box.

01:15:15 and the, the owner of the company put his 14 year old daughter who'd never, didn't, had never worked in the sign industry. You know, she came in to hang out with Daddy at work and that was about it. He put her in charge of it because she's good with computers.

01:15:30 yes. They never, ever, it, and I had the

01:15:37Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I, I have seen this Ruin employees lives. Okay. And like, oh yeah, I, I, I've heard these stories like firsthand, secondhand, [01:15:45] the, these systems again, like they're a multiplier. Like if you get this implemented and running inside your business, it is going to like change your business a hundred percent. If you don't do it the [01:16:00] right way or you, you handle everything poorly, it, it's gonna ruin lives.

01:16:15 are not just new to the industry, like they're 10, 20 years into it, you know, on a similar playing field as us. Uh, so if you've got 10 years of industry knowledge and you're trying to hand this off to somebody, but you don't make the time, [01:16:30] like daily, you need to make two or three hours a day or, uh, you know, have a, like a whole dedicated day on your calendar to sit down with whoever's implementing this, whether that's yourself or, uh, another team member.

01:16:45 like, Hey, how do I price? Uh, because there's a lot of that firsthand knowledge that a like just doesn't make your, make its way to your team. And

01:16:54Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: so these, these programs, they touch every. Every corner of your business. I mean, they, they are very, [01:17:00] very deep and broad in what they do.

01:17:15 one that does. And, and it's extremely unrealistic to think that you can hand any of that off employee.

01:17:30 that knowledge gap between the owner and that person. And no matter how much time you dedicate to it, you still can't like, you know, fully brain dump on that person.

01:17:45 And it's just, I mean, to be frank, I mean that's just, it's just, that's just dumb and poor business. To think that you can hand off something that's that critical to somebody who's.

01:18:00 And, and we've seen it happen so many times and you're, and yeah, Bryant's, right? Like I, we've seen a lot of employees just throw up their hands and quit. We've seen a lot of failed implementations.

01:18:15 this is, this is a hundred percent, the owner has to be heavily, heavily, heavily involved in this process. And if you, as the owner are not able or willing to be involved in that process, then just stop now.

01:18:30 because you're gonna fail at it. It's just, yeah, I mean, that's, that's harsh and blunt, but that's, that's the truth of it, is like, as, as an owner, like you have to, if you don't, just don't even bother. It's just not worth anybody's time.

01:18:44Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: [01:18:45] consultant is going to not help you unless you're involved. It just, no, just not.

01:18:51Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah, we've worked with a lot of consultants too, who, who may know the sign industry really well. But like I said, every shop does things a little bit differently.

01:19:00 consultant understands the industry, they don't understand your business the way you do. They, there's, and they may be able to push buttons and, and, you know, make the software work, but it's probably not gonna be the way you need it to work for you.

01:19:15 you're just, you're just throwing money down the toilet. Don't do that. Don't be that person. Yeah.

01:19:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Cool. Well man, this is a good, good, um, Episode to shake the cobwebs. You know, it's been, it's almost like a [01:19:30] topic that's near and dear to us, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

01:19:45 hope it's helpful to a lot of folks out there that are looking at shop management software this time of year.

01:20:00 won't kick you to the curb, or take your house and your dog and your car and all those things.

01:20:08Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Hey, hey, I got a, I got a terrible dad joke for you

01:20:10Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: in the show. Hey, yeah, you, you know, I'm good . I'm game for Dad jokes. [01:20:15]

01:20:15Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: What do you get if you play a country music song backwards? Oh, I know

01:20:18Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: this one. I've already heard this one. Is your

01:20:22Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: wife back and your dog back and your house back and your car back? Yes.

01:20:29Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: like that one. [01:20:30]

01:20:30Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I love a good dad joke.

01:20:31Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I, I think I've got a whole book downstairs that somebody got me for Christmas. Yeah, I

01:20:35Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: do too. Yeah. .

01:20:36Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Right on man. Well, glad to be back. I hate that we didn't have Peter for this one. I know he's got a ton of thoughts on it, but.[01:20:45]

01:21:00 you, uh, and maybe you know, somebody that you think would be a good interview for the podcast, email us about them.

01:21:15 Facebook group. The Better Sign Shop Community. It is exclusively for owners and management. It's a safe space where you can talk about some of these things that we talk about on the podcast, marketing employees, uh, management, pricing.

01:21:30 groups. We allow it in ours because it's an important piece of your business. So jump in, say hello. We've got a lot of great community members there who are on the same journey as you are. Anything else? I think we're good.

01:21:43Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Sounds good.

01:21:44Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Perfect. [01:21:45] Getting better at that outro thing.

01:21:51Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: guys. If you liked this episode, make sure you hit subscribe to get all the latest episodes and check out our website, better sign [01:22:00] shop.com. Get free resources and helpful tools on growing your shop. Thanks for listening.