Elevating Our Craft // Interview with Tom McIltrot - Founder of SignCraft Magazine / Better Sign Shop

00:00:00Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit. Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, [00:00:15] workflow, growth,

00:00:16Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: and

00:00:16Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: more. Your listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts,

00:00:23Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Peter

00:00:23Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: COIs, Michael O'Reilly,

00:00:26Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: and Bryant Gillespie.

00:00:29Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Before we [00:00:30] jump into the episode, I'd like to give a shout out to our sponsor, GCI I Digital Imaging Grand Format Printer to the trade. We talk a lot about outsourcing on the podcast and the importance of. Good partners and GCI Digital [00:00:45] Imaging is a good partner to have owner TJ Bak and his team focused on providing killer customer service just the way grandmother used to make it.

00:01:00 episode nine where the guys and I interview TJ about customer experience. So if you're looking for a high quality trade printer for banners, wraps, and other printed graphics that your customers throw at you, check out [00:01:15] GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com.

00:01:30 Yoda. How are you Pete? How's up everybody? Happy to be back. Yeah, glad to have you back. We missed you last episode. And. We have the Sign Design Samurai.

00:01:43Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: you? Is that [00:01:45] what you've settled on? For me, the Samurai,

00:01:46Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I, nobody has given me any new ones, uh, as of late. So the second somebody gives me a new one, , you're gonna get hit with another one. I don't, I don't know what it's gonna be from, you know, I, I've run out of [00:02:00] nicknames myself.

00:02:14Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I'm [00:02:15] having an identity crisis. I'm , I'm starting to freak out a little bit here every week. It's a new , it's a new nickname for Mike.

00:02:25Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I'm good. Good. What's? It's good. What's new with you guys? Pete, [00:02:30] dude, what have you been doing? Oh, I've been

00:02:32Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: really busy. I've been real busy. I've been keeping myself busy in the franchise world. Also meeting some new sign shop owners in the world, uh, discussing franchising with them, discussing how [00:02:45] to make them, you know, strive for operational excellence.

00:02:59Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: It [00:03:00] sounds like you're really enjoying retirement . Well,

00:03:04Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: yeah.

00:03:05Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: You know, uh, throwing in the, uh, the sign shop owner badge for sign shop consultant is, uh, has been a very busy transaction, a [00:03:15] very, a busy transition, I should say.

00:03:30 Georgia. So just meeting new sign shop owners, helping them in their operation.

00:03:36Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: so far. Missouri, huh? Mm.

00:03:41Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Exotic .

00:03:43Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Very exotic. . [00:03:45] Mike, what have you been up to,

00:03:45Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: man? Uh, same old, for me, trying to lay low and just stay busy opposite of Peter . Do very d different life tracks. I think. Enjoying retirement as well. Enjoying

00:03:57Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: retirement. Jack, are you [00:04:00] still staying up till 2:00 AM in the mornings designing stuff, or you got that cutout now?

00:04:05Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Uh, I, I don't know, man. I'm on a weird schedule. Like I, I, I tend to just kind of during the day, poke around the house and work on house projects and respond to email anymore it seems like. [00:04:15] My brain wants to design at night, so I, I sort of like start working on design work after, after dinner, and then I kind of go till I get tired, which is a weird cycle I'm trying to break, but it's really just kind of like my personality and not being so busy that I have to work until [00:04:30] 2:00 AM anymore.

00:04:33Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: of your designs, you know, we had a, a post where you put out a couple of examples of some of your most recent work. Mockups. Eh, it's gotten a lot of praise and especially in conversations I've had a lot of people have [00:04:45] shown more impressed by what you have put out there.

00:04:50Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: kudos to you. . I, uh, I, I think I know which post you're talking about. I think I picked up nine clients off of one Facebook post , so [00:05:00] yeah. I guess I need to do more marketing. Imagine that.

00:05:03Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Weird signed guy. That, that actually does marketing. That's

00:05:06Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: like a, it's an

00:05:08Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: anomaly is what?

00:05:15 come up with something there. That's, it's a technology. I can tell you guys what kind of fun I've been

00:05:20Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: having. Yeah. What have you been up to? Brian? Car

00:05:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: shopping. Car shopping again? So we, we just got my wife a new car. She had it for about three weeks [00:05:30] and, uh, some young buck decided to jump in front of her car on the way to work and, uh, didn't end well for him.

00:05:45 we have totaled two cars in two months, so that's where we're at.

00:05:49Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Just for my own

00:05:50Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: clarification, cuz I'm, I'm a bit up north. When you say Young Buck, that's not a young kid. That's a, that's actually a young deer, correct? .

00:05:59Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: That is a [00:06:00] deer, yes.

00:06:01Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Okay.

00:06:07Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: No, I, I was being vague, uh, intentionally there, but yeah, no, it was, um, it was just a, a young male [00:06:15] deer that for whatever reason, decided to play in traffic eight o'clock in the morning. Not wise, he

00:06:21Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: just did it. I still can't get over the fact that she totaled two cars within a month of each other.

00:06:30 dropped you by now. Yeah.

00:06:32Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: The cease and desist letter this week comes from the insurance company,

00:06:36Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Farmer's Insurance.

00:06:37Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Uh, the insurance is, we've got really great insurance. Yeah. It's like the teacher insurance horse man.

00:06:45 So, and like a, if a deer, if you hit a deer and there's nothing you can do, it's considered an act of God. So they can't really penalize you for that, or at least that's what they told us.

00:06:55Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: That's, uh, that's good. That's very interesting.

00:06:58Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I'm not saying go get like your [00:07:00] truck and go hit deer on purpose. Just

00:07:05Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Bryant Bryant told me you guys were cool with this.

00:07:11Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. So I, that's what we've been wrestling with. Other [00:07:15] than that, uh, just staying busy.

00:07:17Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: So, have you guys picked out a new car yet or are you still still trying

00:07:20Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: to Uh, we're, we're deciding. My wife likes nice cars, so we're looking at a Mercedes E-class right now. Use one, uh, not [00:07:30] a new one, but, uh, hopefully by the time we record the next one, we'll have that sorted out because we gotta take the rental car back tomorrow afternoon.

00:07:41Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: on a scale of one to 10, how sick and tired are you of [00:07:45] shopping for cars right now? Uh, I'm probably at like an eight

00:07:49Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: and I enjoy that process. My wife is probably like at an 11, uh, just totally defeated. Like I feel so bad for her, you know, like [00:08:00] you have the car that you wanted and then a deer just jumps in front of you.

00:08:05Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: actually interested. I have a question Cause I recently bought a, a couple of vehicles here, but I bought mine through an app. Cause I hate the experience of a car dealership experience. I mean, we [00:08:15] preach on how to sell signs here and, and how to coach people on how only selling signs do not do it like car dealers do.

00:08:30 flatbed. Like it was seamless. So Have you tried

00:08:32Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: that? Uh, we looked at Carvana, but they wouldn't deliver it to our house because we live in Podunk, West Virginia.

00:08:45 every might as well. My wife hates it. Like, I, I like to play that game and , I, I don't know why. It's like some, I, no, it's probably something I need to go to therapy for. But, you know, ?

00:08:56Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Yeah. Yep. Yep. I'm sorry.

00:09:00 I'd rather listen to people nickel and dime me over graphic design than ever have to go to a car dealership used or new. That process is just, I feel like the moment you walk in the door, they're ready to bend you over. [00:09:15] Like that whole, like that whole process from beginning to end. And when you're finally sitting in with like that finance manager, she's like hitting you with, do you want rim protection?

00:09:30 I'm like, I already gave, I already signed away half of my life and spent 18 hours here. I'm not looking to spend another hour with you, talking to you about, well, the what ifs. Well, we have really great dent coverage and really great rim.

00:09:45 Oh, road rash. Yeah. That's when your curbs run against the curb. Uh, your car rims run against the curb, you know? Doesn't that happen? It's like $400 or rim to fix. I could, uh, if you pay now it's $89. Like, lady, [00:10:00] stop making my hair gray .

00:10:02Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: And that's why haven't I heard your, your impression of this lady, this unnamed car lady before

00:10:09Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Lorraine.

00:10:15 Beatrice depending on the

00:10:17Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: day of the week. Re reminds me of the Secretary in, uh, in Monsters Inc. You guys see that

00:10:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: movie? Yes. I don't know. I don't remember the secretary, Mike Kowski.

00:10:27Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Mike, you know, [00:10:30] would you like to add that road to your car warranty?

00:10:34Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: That's

00:10:35Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: it. , no, I, it definitely seems like an industry that's like, just primed for somebody to come in and totally disrupt it. But it's, it's amazing to me that nobody can or has yet, [00:10:45] like, it's like the, it's the last holdout of moving to, uh, you know, CarMax,

00:10:49Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Carvana, like a Carvana True car.

00:10:51Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Like every, like, everything.

00:11:00 gotta go into the dealership.

00:11:01Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. So, enough, enough about the car shopping. Let's get into it today, Mike. I know you're a pretty hard fanboy of Sign Craft Magazine. I'm

00:11:14Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: freaking [00:11:15] out over here.

00:11:18Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: who do we got about the Shake Outta My, who do we got? We got him. Who is it? We got him.

00:11:23Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Tom Mcle Trot of Sign Craft Magazine. Yeah. Yeah. This is exciting. I, [00:11:30] this is Sign Craft was like, and, and, and still is to an extent the mm-hmm. , you know, the Bible of, of sign making for me. I mean, it just, what an amazing, amazing magazine that it it is and was, and, and I've learned so much about the [00:11:45] craft and the art of making signs and, and.

00:12:00 February. This

00:12:00Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: is, this is gonna be awesome. All right.

00:12:02Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: No, this is it. Like this is, this is the pinnacle of my career right here. Like, like I have peaked Ooh. Right now. And it's all downhill after this. So.

00:12:10Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: All right. We'll never talk. Bring him on. Let's bring him on. All right guys. [00:12:15] So we are back with Tom Mcle trot of Sign Craft.

00:12:18Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Welcome on Tom. Thank you, Brian.

00:12:24Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Super

00:12:24Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: nice to have you. Yeah, we're really excited you're here. This is cool. Great.

00:12:29Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Hey, [00:12:30] Mike said this was his Christmas . Oh, yeah. .

00:12:35Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. I, I had a sleepless night last night in anticipation. I'm ,

00:12:41Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: like

00:12:42Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: so many of us, like a sign craft when [00:12:45] we were coming up in the industry.

00:13:00 these detailed articles with all the photos, step-by-step of how to make this sign or how to design something, or how to price something.

00:13:15 thank you to get that outta the way. Well, well,

00:13:17Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: thank you very much. That's cool to hear. Appreciate that.

00:13:21Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Mike, do you want to, do you wanna get your love letter now? ?

00:13:25Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Same for me. I mean, I, when I started in the industry back in the mid nineties, I, I [00:13:30] mean, just devoured every epi issue, a sign craft I could get my hands on, and I've still got, you know, several hundred in storage.

00:13:45 industry I learned from your magazine. Um, great. It, it was the greatest thing ever. I mean, I, I loved it. I mean, all the way down to like, I would even geek out over the paper and the print quality in it, which was just , you know, several steps above any other magazine out there.

00:13:58Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: And it was, yeah. Well, thank [00:14:00] you. I appreciate you noticed that. We were, we were always. Proud of the, of the stock and the, and the print quality. And that was a big thing for us since it was a graphics magazine, you know, a visual experience. So we were, we were kind of, that was important to us. Yeah. It [00:14:15] made

00:14:15Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: a, it made a huge d I mean, you know, we're all geeks about that kind of stuff in this industry, and it definitely made a huge difference.

00:14:30 so, right. .

00:14:31Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

00:14:33Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. So, thanks. I, I feel like we, we like know the story of Tom through Sy Craft, but I really don't know the story of Tom.

00:14:45 get started in the sign industry? How did Sign Craft come about?

00:14:49Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Sure. Well, like a lot of folks our, my age, our age, I was, um, in high school and whatnot, wanting to do something with my hands, something creative, and, uh, [00:15:00] worked in a cabinet shop for a while, worked in, uh, A couple other kind of hands on businesses, but one day I was on my way home from school and there were a couple of guys, three guys on a billboard in front of a new development and, uh, back in the field.

00:15:15 off the road and trudged back there through the muck and got, got there and asked them, how do you guys, how do you learn to do this? And two of 'em said, oh, don't bother. It's too much work, . And one guy told me, uh, you just need to get some old [00:15:30] cool sign books and, uh, and start practicing learn how to letter.

00:15:45 two shops told. Same thing. If you can't let her, we don't need you. You know, we don't need somebody to sweep up.

00:16:00 T program at high school, you know, part-time cooperative training person. And she had just quit. So I told him, he said, what can you do? I said, I'll do anything, you know, I can paint boards, I can answer the phone.

00:16:15 shop, and, uh, Started hanging out there every day after school, even on days he wasn't paying me and didn't want me and didn't need me. Um, and tried to make myself indispensable. I dug postals and and stuff and we, we clicked pretty well.

00:16:30 month, he, one day af after I punched out, he said, you know, here one minute, take a look at this. And he got a piece of yellow show card out and slapped it on the easel and gave me a number six Quill with some dite poster color and said, watch this. And he drew me, drew some lines with his [00:16:45] yardstick, you know, right across there and.

00:17:00 piece of show card, um, somewhere. But, but that was it. I was hooked on making letters with a brush. So I, I just went home and built an easel in the garage and started practicing.

00:17:15 And I'm a native of Pennsylvania, so my, my family at the time returned. They moved back, they had only lived in Florida about five years. They went back to Pennsylvania and. in that same time. Both of my older, my brothers, my older brother and my younger brother wound up working at [00:17:30] that same sign shop.

00:17:45 estate signs and t-shirts and, and we were doing all sorts of flat signs, painted signs.

00:18:00 so there was no place to work. So we, we just figured, well, we'll open one. And so we went into the signed business, totally green. Like I say, I was maybe 20 and.

00:18:15 decided Florida was a lot better place to live and work and everything. While we were there, we um, we got in sandblasting signs, saw Big John Brice's book advertised in signs of the Times, and we, and we blasted our first signs there in pa and [00:18:30] when we got back to Florida, it was a completely different market, much better market for blasted signs and developments were popping up everywhere.

00:18:45 stopped in sign shops and we'd connect with people. We'd either get chased off or we'd connect with people. One of the two . So when we, when we connected with folks, we often wound up sending photographs back and.

00:19:00 sign of the Times and seen his work there and, um, he hooked me up with Big John Burell and, and some folks like that Chuck who Depo and Bob Sealander, all old time traditional sign guys who were top of their game. So they would send photographs to to [00:19:15] us.

00:19:30 around a little bit. We, we went to the library and photocopied a thousand sign shop addresses out of the yellow Pages.

00:19:45 photocopied all the, all the pages we needed. We went home, typed up mailing labels, wrote a letter saying, here's what we'd like to do. , it's gonna be nine bucks a year.

00:20:00 self-serving thing. It was, we did just what we wish was coming in our mailbox. So we sent it out. We got 88 people who sent us back 88 Brave Souls who sent us nine bucks to, to give it a go. And, and that was it.

00:20:15 1980, printed a thousand copies of the first issue. Wow. Went back to the sign shop and slid 'em in envelopes and sent 'em away. And, uh, a year or so later, we sold the shop to some friends of ours to get the cash we needed to start printing [00:20:30] color. Color back then was incredibly expensive.

00:20:45 didn't realize with print. Print production was getting easier and more affordable. And so we just kind of grew right along with that. And a couple years later, it was a full color magazine and, uh, and the subscription's history.

00:21:00 The subscription, the subscription numbers just grew. We, we were amazed. We were totally amazed the, the, and the cool work that came in, in the mail, you know, envelopes from first, from like Raymond Chapman and m Marelli then, and they told other folks. And then [00:21:15] I, I distinctly remember the day I got an, an envelope from this cat in Bloomington, Indiana, Gary Anderson, and slid his photographs out.

00:21:30 issue at the time. And, uh, it was just the start of a whole bunch of really neat friendships with really creative people who were amazingly willing. to share what they knew. And, uh, we, we, we had worries about that initially, about are we gonna be able [00:21:45] to get enough material?

00:21:53Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: were those conversations like when you guys went into a sign shop? Like you just, like cold walked up to you, uh, somebody [00:22:00] else's a sign shop. Sure. It was like, Hey, we're sign guys.

00:22:04Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: yep. And I, and you know, I, I remember going to one in Vermont, Dick Flynn, he's gone now, but, um, he was a really cool guy, a great sign Carver, and a good solid sign painter. [00:22:15] We walked up to his shop and, and he was out front lettering a truck. And he worked from, from studio in his home.

00:22:30 you know, it was like in the old days, we used to say, oh, a sign, another sign guy, you know, hide the patterns, um, hide the work orders, . Um, but, um, so, but we went on to become great friends.

00:22:45 encouraging us to do sign craft. He, he was a great guy and, but, you know, some, some, it's, it's really probably not too different than it is now for you guys visiting sign shops. Some shops are very open and very motivated and they're excited about [00:23:00] what they're doing.

00:23:15 with, uh, droves of, of those folks who were really. Energetic about what they were doing, and, um, it was inspiration.

00:23:30 by, by the early nineties when you guys, I guess, would've started seeing it, it was going to 22,000 sign shops in 74 countries, I believe it was. Wow. And uh, and it's an incredible little niche of really [00:23:45] creative, inspired people.

00:23:46Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Did you ever have any trouble getting content for the magazine from people, or were people just beating down your door to submit?

00:23:53Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Right. No, the first three issues we had to work pretty hard at, and [00:24:00] Chester Cunningham was still alive then, and he, he said, Tom, you're not gonna. Information. There's not enough of the people who are really enthused about the work and, and you're not gonna get a steady flow of articles and material photos and stuff for articles.

00:24:15 didn't pan out. It, it actually went the other way. And even to this day, I have the exact opposite problem. I, I always have to suffer through sorting out what I'm going, what I'm going to use now. Because there's this massive amount of, [00:24:30] um, of work that I'm aware of or people have shared with me, you know, that I wanna get in the magazine.

00:24:45 14, 16 photographs. And somebody would send you 90 pictures, you know, or 40 pictures and you'd spread these all out and it's like, oh no, use this one. No, we gotta use this one.

00:25:00 but man, it was fun.

00:25:01Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah. That's really cool. So who, This is, this is probably a hard, hard question to answer. What, what was your, your favorite article You ever, you ever ran in the magazine? Do you remember? Or have there been so many that it's like possible

00:25:14Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: to change?

00:25:15 there, yeah, there have been so many. I, I think the, um, I, I enjoy the design driven articles the most probably, cuz I, I think that's what created Sign Craft was the idea that a sh a an individual sign person had their own [00:25:30] style and they, they could create this cool stuff and it gave them something to sell beyond letters on a board.

00:25:45 kinda stuff. But, but then when you started running these creative people like God Almighty, Bob Boho, Tom Kelly, all the folks in New Jersey, you know, Glenn Weiss, Gerber. Quimby names of those. [00:26:00] There's so many of those folks that really, every one of those articles became a, a favorite, you know, it was like all that energy from those, from those creative people.

00:26:10Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I, I remember, I think one of my favorite issues you guys ever released was, uh, like mid, late nineties. [00:26:15] It was, uh, kind of a spotlight on all the Jersey guys, and it was a, you know, a whole issue about Jersey's style lettering. And that, I mean, I still draw inspiration from that to this day. , you know, that that style has really like, you know, kind of stayed back in the nineties.

00:26:30 what an amazing wealth of, of knowledge and information. Just that one, that one issue had from those guys. It was, yeah. Really, really cool. Hey Tom, I

00:26:38Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: welcome to the, welcome to the show. I just wanted to introduce myself. We've never met. Big fan. I was [00:26:45] very pleased to see that we were able to get you onto the show here, and I'm so happy that you answered that Mike's last question in that way, because that's really what resonated with me and this magazine.

00:27:00 Design I I, I. For me, the magazine was a godsend to learning what were, what others were doing around the country. Yeah. Uh, just being introduced to different artists and different concepts and ideologies and [00:27:15] methodologies of doing things and what software they did it in.

00:27:30 does, but , I kept, I kept a, a, a large amount of selection in my lobby of all of my locations. I, it was a requirement for my franchise.

00:27:45 they were in the lobbies of their locations as well. And customers loved reading it. I think it was a really great, uh, value add from, um, from a customer experience. Like, Hey, this is what. Maybe you can be inspired by perusing through this magazine.

00:28:00 word, right?

00:28:00Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Perusing

00:28:04Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: perusing through that magazine to get some inspiration. Right. Because, you know, your average consumer doesn't really know what they want. So if you can reference examples of sign shop owners across the country, I mean, [00:28:15] I used your magazine as, as an asset, as a tool in my tool belt. Mm-hmm. , um, just from my own perspective in being introduced to different designers with their portfolio and, and, and, and, and showcasing their work has [00:28:30] made me, has pushed me to be a better designer.

00:28:37Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: to that at all? Yeah, yeah. We do hear it a lot and it's always good to hear. It's, it's, um, you know, Syra, we were able to be a [00:28:45] clearinghouse for all that good stuff. That, that's what I think the significant thing was. And so many people have told me that.

00:29:00 know, I need a sign to cut to the chase, it's so good to be able to show them a few things and narrow that sign that's in their head down to what their appeals to them or what they, their [00:29:15] thinking or what's their budget is for.

00:29:30 of, you know where to go because, you know, it's like Ken Malar used to say, when people said that, you know what, I need a sign.

00:29:45 between. So, so, yeah. And, and you know, Peter, you probably realized this too, from the magazine. Wasn't it amazing to unearth all those kind of regional sign styles?

00:30:00 when we, and, and so for us, it was an education as we went along to see the, the Chicago school, you know, of the, the Chicago designers and to learn how those guys had gone to California in their fifties and created another whole west coast style that was happening there.

00:30:15 work, the, the, the traditional carved New England, uh, car hand carved gold leaf science that were all over New England. You know, it's like, I had never seen one of those in real life until I got to Vermont, you know, and, and here they were [00:30:30] on every store from a hardware store to a, you know, to a, b, and b.

00:30:45 that was another whole design school. So there's probably. Eight or 10 US design schools like that, I think that, uh, that we could identify. But, um,

00:30:56Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: and you know, did you like the sign historian?

00:31:00

00:31:00Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: I just got exposed to a lot of cool stuff by a lot of inspiring people and I'm really grateful for that and, and to have known these, these folks and, you know, so much of it back then was definitely not like this. We, we did it over [00:31:15] the phone and through, uh, you know, handwritten letters and notes and stacks of pictures wrapped up in pattern paper that, uh, that showed up in the mail.

00:31:30 a lot of, besides that group of people who were sharing this stuff, there was armies of folks like you guys who were hungry for it. Pre-internet. There was, it was, there weren't a lot of places to get that information. There weren't any really

00:31:44Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: So, [00:31:45] right. And, and they like the, um, Mike and Pete and I talk about the early days of like signs 1 0 1 and like some of the signs specific mm-hmm. Forms that popped up when the internet came around and, you know, it was very much that mentality, like you [00:32:00] mentioned of like, Hey, I've come walking into these guys painting on a billboard and I'm like, Hey, I want to get into this.

00:32:15

00:32:15Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: yeah. Yeah. I remember one cool old sign guy in a sign shop in Pennsylvania putting his arm on my shoulder and saying, son, go be a barber.

00:32:29Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: um, in [00:32:30] hindsight, do you wish you would've taken that advice, ?

00:32:33Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: No. Needless to say I'm really happy with how, how things went here. I, I, uh, I'm really grateful to have, to have, you know, bumped into this and, and all these cool people and, [00:32:45] and to have been able to, to share it really with folks around the world.

00:33:00 how much, how helpful it was. And that's pretty cool. Yeah. That is cool.

00:33:04Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Everything that is old once becomes new again. Yeah. We put, um, we've got a, a Facebook community for sign shop owners and at the other day I posted like, give us your [00:33:15] take on the future of the industry. And a couple people came back and said, Hey, like Gold Leaf is coming back, uh, tra you know, like these, these craft, the craft of signage is coming back.

00:33:30 like a front row seat to the industry over, uh, the last, you know, 30, 42 years. 40 years, yeah. 42. I was, I was, I was thinking like 1980. I was like, man, that's, yeah. Yeah. Like, like [00:33:45] what kind of like big shifts have you seen, you know, have you like, oh, hey, this is like a, a changing of the, the.

00:33:52Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Yeah, well, the computer of course rewrote things for every, for all of us, not just the sign industry, but for [00:34:00] printing, the printing industry and, and everything. But, um, I think there was a, like a renaissance time there in the seventies, eighties, nineties when people were really interested in kind of doing things with their hands and having a business where they were [00:34:15] kind of in full control.

00:34:30 cost of shop space and, and everything, the cost to get into the sign business have all gone up exponentially.

00:34:45 We've gone to this full digital thing and I just did an interesting article with Shane Deford, who's been, who started out as a sign painter, became a sign carver because vinyl was coming in, did sign carving and workshops and everything up in Canada for [00:35:00] years.

00:35:07Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: workshops again, just to insert something here, if anybody listening has never seen Shane's work, , look him up. [00:35:15] Prepare to have your mind blown, like talk about, yep. Unbelievably talented guy. Like this guy is one of the most incredible sign makers I've ever seen.

00:35:23Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Yep. Shane darnford.com. Another, another website we could share with folks to check out is solo [00:35:30] signs.com. Uh, lane Walker's, Reno Sign Shop. Who, who is just that? He works alone, works solo hand, lettered letters, everything. Some incredible truck work, uh, is leaving that shop every day. So there's, uh, there are a lot, and, you know, it [00:35:45] gives me an idea actually for a cool article sometime is to collect all the websites of that folks really should start visiting because there's just a tremendous amount of, of mind blowing work there to, to check out.

00:36:00 I say, I can see it in, in folks like Shane's career that some of these folks are coming back to us or coming back to hand lettering and carving and whatnot, and they found a niche again with part of the business community that, that values that [00:36:15] like, you know, tattoo parlors, barbershops. Cigar shops, coffee shops, pubs.

00:36:30 they're into, you know, to do, wanna do printed or do wanna do electrical, there's, there's so many opportunities there too. So, Mike,

00:36:38Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: what do you like, what's your take on this man?

00:36:45 like, this is why you got in the industry was to do the nice signs. Like do you think they're, do you see them, Megan, a comeback?

00:36:52Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I do. I I think that when I, when I got into the industry in the, in the mid nineties, I, I think the, um, you know, that was kind of right [00:37:00] as the computer.

00:37:15 Antonelli, uh, when we had him on the show about, you know, there's, there's very little barrier of entry to the industry, right?

00:37:30 back then and you 50 bucks in brushes and you're in the industry, right? But the barrier there was you gotta know how to use those brushes.

00:37:36Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. That's feel like, yeah. Yeah. That's a huge, that's, that's a funny,

00:37:39Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: yeah. You didn't say . Yeah. I mean there's a big

00:37:42Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: difference there. is pretty easy to spot, [00:37:45] right? ,

00:37:45Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: right? Yeah. Well that guy doesn't know how to use, like, you really spot the guy that doesn't know how to use his, his role in, but you definitely can spot the guy who doesn't , you know, lettering.

00:37:53Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Um, very true.

00:37:55Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: And, um, so I got into the industry. And wanted to do the types of signs [00:38:00] that Seine Craft featured. I mean that, I mean this, that was like pornography for me. . Like, I can't put this down. I can't, I, I have to make this stuff. I have to learn how to make this stuff. And, and, and I did, and I found out really quickly that at least where I was the market for it was, was dying [00:38:15] out.

00:38:30 industry, I think people have finally started to wake up and realize that these are, these are only tools and they don't really do anything other than what you, you tell them to do.

00:38:45 name, but it's not, there's no artist, there's no, there's no craft to that. There's no art in that. And I think people are really wanting to see a return to, to that. And a lot of the signs that I'm designing, especially in the, in the last few years, have really taken a shift towards.

00:39:00 in wanting to see something that's not just a, a flat digital print slapped on a piece of dive on or something. Mm-hmm. , I think it's still got a ways to go and I, I do think that, and, and the post you're talking about on the, the Facebook group, Brian, um, I, I, I mentioned this is in a comment.

00:39:15 easy for all of us to, to kind of. Talk down on the current, you know, young generation, generation Z I think it is. Whatever, it's , . But, but you know, those kids are, they grew up with, they, they don't, they don't have any reference other than the internet and, and, [00:39:30] and they're Yeah.

00:39:45 But this young generation, they, they didn't experience what it was like before digital.

00:40:00 I think that vinyl and digital are starting to settle into their place and not be, you know, and just become seen as, You know, a tool or a means to an end.

00:40:15 quality handmade look. And I, and I hope in the next 10 years, that really becomes the dominant thing again. I don't know if it will, but

00:40:21Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, it'd be cool. But, you know, you, you already see it in, I think like in restaurant interiors and restaurants and, and pubs, interiors, [00:40:30] coffee shop, interiors, there's a lot of interest in using signs as like decor mm-hmm.

00:40:43Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: yeah. Yeah. [00:40:45] Absolutely. It's, it's interesting how it's, it's gone from such a utilitarian thing to actually being a desirable almost piece of art. I mean, it is, it is art.

00:41:00

00:41:00Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Yeah. I'm with you.

00:41:01Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. So, hey. Hey, Tom. We've talked about, hey, kind of the current state of affairs, like, and you know, where we wanted to go.

00:41:12Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Well, I think really to echo [00:41:15] what Michael's saying, I think there's, as long as the economy stays strong, there's gonna be a market for creative, creative science. And that gives a leg in for the folks who want to have that type of focus for their, for their [00:41:30] business.

00:41:45 any money. Mm-hmm. for a sandblasted sign. But when I got back to Fort Myers, when we got back to Fort Myers, is that real estate development exploding and the beaches becoming much more, um, with a lot more tourist traffic.

00:42:00 folks to, you know, write a check for something cool. So it's, it's, I feel bad for folks who are in a market where it just isn't happening yet, or maybe never will happen. So they'll have to kind of sprinkle those cool signs that they love doing and with the, [00:42:15] the more functional stuff they do.

00:42:30 sign painters I worked with in the early days there, they, they really never had an opportunity even to do gold leaf. I mean, there was, nobody was doing gold when I was 20 years old.

00:42:45 and, and got him to show me how to, how to glassgold do glassgold. And, um, and he kind of, it was kinda like a novelty for him. And, uh, his name was Chet Board and he said, uh, it's like, you know, why do you wanna do this?

00:43:00 guild their glass windows. Glass will guild glass again on windows, because companies move too often, you know, and, and names change too, too often. He said, you know, before if you let it, a bank window, it stayed there until the window broke or the, the lettering fell [00:43:15] off. You know, the, the bank was just gonna be there.

00:43:30 right? We can tell when we look at their work. But, uh, I think there'll be, there'll be some of that.

00:43:45 situations, that's what we're selling. Especially with computer equipment, kind of it . Yeah. Right. Compu computers level the field as far as the production side. And so if you stay with just how fast and how cheap [00:44:00] you can produce signs, It's, it's, it's mud wrestling.

00:44:15 edge is always messy. Whereas if you have, if you, you know, beef up your design skills and you have, have something to offer on the design side that the customer can see with, with your portfolio or on your website or your Instagram page, it's like, Hey, this guy or this [00:44:30] gal, whoever it is can do, can do what I need and give me that edge.

00:44:45 letters right out to the very edge of the board. So, and you have to decide whether you're in the position to say thanks, but there's a shop across town who'll take care of you.

00:45:00

00:45:01Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I, I'm glad that you, you said that about design, Tom. It's something that I'm, I'm, every time I get the opportunity to, to preach that to people I, in this industry, I, I do. I think, and I, I think with, with the rise of [00:45:15] computers and, and digital technology, I think a lot of people in this industry have lost sight of the fact that we are, we are in the design industry, we're in the marketing industry, and our customers don't care about how the signs are made.

00:45:30 know, like, I, like I just said a minute ago with, with, with that rise of technology, it's allowed people to get into the industry that don't have the design chops to. You know, to produce what the customers are, are wanting. And, and I, I think the, the late nineties and the early two thousands were kind of a sad time for the [00:45:45] industry where everything was, you know, whatever, you know, font bundle came with sign lab or whatever.

00:45:50Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: But I, I think ,

00:45:52Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: sorry, did I? Aerial, VEA, , uh, what's

00:45:56Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: the, what's the other one? Olive Nord. Everything was antique [00:46:00] Olive. Yeah. I Or Euro style. That was a good one too. Yeah. Yeah. If you wanted something modern and contemporary. I, yeah, I, I think that, and I think that's, that's something that Se Craft did such a great job wa of, uh, was, was putting that [00:46:15] first, you know, all the other sign industry magazines, they, you know, all of 'em kind of touch on design, but really they're, they're, they're much more manufacturing and, and business driven, which is fine.

00:46:30 you know, design is the front line of what we're selling and it's the first thing people see and it's the last thing they react to after they, their signs on their building.

00:46:45 were, they were amazing. I mean, this, this guy taught me to think about how I'm laying out a, you know, a for sale banner or a, you know mm-hmm. a job site sign or something, and put, and not just straight line black and red hellvetica, but, but actually put some serious thought into the layout on [00:47:00] a, on a, you know, a four by eight site sign.

00:47:12Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: And you know, the cool thing about design is once you get those chops, [00:47:15] once you get those fundamentals, you can, um, you gotta jump in.

00:47:20Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: sorry guys. Hey, Tom. It's very nice to meet you, sir. I gotta jump out, but I just wanted to tell you, I just wanted to ask you one question. Sure. Uh, and then I'll, I'll have to jump out, but [00:47:30] I, I can't wait to hear the answer. You mentioned the design. Mike and I raised our fists in the air in celebration for that.

00:47:38Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: know, it's, it's a matter

00:47:40Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: of where

00:47:41Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: can our listeners, the people that are listening to this podcast today, [00:47:45] where, where can they go to? In your experience from the resources, you know, where can they go to like propel their design skills? If design is what we're selling, what, what would your response be to someone that says, how can I take my design team and like elevate [00:48:00] what we're currently doing?

00:48:01Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Yeah. Yeah, that's a tough question, Peter, because there's really not one single source. Probably the closest thing we have to it is Mike Steven's book, uh, mastering Layout, which, but it's a little bit of a complex re read. It's, it's a, [00:48:15] it's a challenging book to read sometimes that the principles are there, the fundamentals, and then.

00:48:30 articles were they were just like nuggets. You know, you didn't have to sit down and digest a whole encyclopedia of, of information. You could get one thing like Bob say ma uh, an art.

00:48:45 script. And I think it's best to learn those things one little bite at a time. We've been doing a, a series of articles on the, on the site lately on individual aspects of, of design. Like last week I think it [00:49:00] was, um, uh, use using copy blocks to message blocks to break up and control copy.

00:49:15 take it all in and, um, and then critique your own work against it. Uh, that's always hard. You know, there probably need to be more workshops for, by outstanding designers on how design works and learning the fundamentals.[00:49:30]

00:49:45 And so we lost some of that. But I do think there's a lot of folks who have returned and, um, and are doing interesting work that we can still pick their brains and, and see why they do what they do.

00:49:56Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: So hopefully this isn't like a, a painful question [00:50:00] to answer. I apologize if it is. What's your, how do you feel about the state of publishing right now? Obviously you've moved, signed Craft online. Mm-hmm. , which is painful for me. Honestly, like I, I, I hated to see that. Like I said, I mean, just the tactile quality of the [00:50:15] magazine was, was a huge part of appeal.

00:50:19Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: How well you can imagine after 42 years of print, print publishing, what, what a shift it was for us and it, it cannot, [00:50:30] we cannot call it the same mm-hmm. there, it's a drastically different way to deliver information. The, uh, you know, before it was a matter of designing spreads and, and designing the whole magazine so that as you went through it, you found what you needed and maybe you learned [00:50:45] something that you were, was unexpected, you know, in the next article.

00:51:00 know, we, we do our two or three articles a week and we can't really.

00:51:15 can take it out on the porch with a cup of coffee and fold down corners Yes. Of the pages and come back to Yes.

00:51:30 with a print magazine, like I say, fold a corner down, put a post-it on it, come back to it later. So, and, and I hear this that I hear all day long, a lot of our readers are older readers who have been kind of begrudgingly drugged along [00:51:45] into the digital world.

00:52:00 big Midwestern web printers who printed and mailed small circulation magazine like ours from the center of the country to take advantage of the postal rates from coast to coast and stuff.

00:52:15 literal bloodbath mm-hmm. in the publishing industry that that's happened. And, and it's not, it's not gonna stop. It's not gonna come back. There are successful special interest magazines that are, people are doing now that are more, they call 'em [00:52:30] Bookazine more or less.

00:52:45 somebody's banging it out every other month or every month though, that's getting harder and harder to do.

00:53:00 photos and we'll flip through there and you know, Dennis will look over my shoulder and say, oh, there's a cover, you know?

00:53:09Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: It's definitely not the same. You know, I was, yeah. I was talking to Mike the other day and I was like, I [00:53:15] was, I was like, my wife is a deer has hit her car. The car is totaled. And we'd been car shopping all day, but, Hmm. I had got a, I got a physical catalog from a sign supplier that was like 150, 200 pages [00:53:30] thick, and I thought those were dead.

00:53:45 products and things like that. Right. Like, oh, hey, I've never tried this. This particular vinyl or, or whatever before.

00:53:52Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: there's no doubt. We, we made a tremendous amount of progress thanks to the internet and, and how we can share information and connect everything. But at the [00:54:00] same time, some really good things were lost in the shuffle. You know, some, the tactical experience, the, the way to, to be able to refer back to stuff is easy.

00:54:15 often took on a life of their own because people returned to them and they also referred to them in future articles and stuff. And you can make that connection. Digital information doesn't have that kind of life. You know, really the, the articles we do now, [00:54:30] kind of in a few weeks, they're kind of just back there in the archives, you know, on the webpage and, yeah.

00:54:45 and, uh, they were dog-eared beyond recognition . They, they were, you could barely tell that they, I mean, some of these were from back when we were Saddles station, you know, had Staples in and, and they, the staples had long since given way and it was just this [00:55:00] pile of, of pages.

00:55:11Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: cool about magazines that I don't think a website or [00:55:15] online magazine will ever be able to. Accomplish is when you get a, a copy of Seine Craft, you know, a printed version of Seine Craft, you're gonna read it cover to cover.

00:55:30 oh yeah, that's cool. That's interesting. Jersey style, semi-truck letter. I'll never letter a semi-truck in New Jersey, but I'm still gonna read the article cause the pictures are pretty and I'm gonna learn something from it.

00:55:45 nothing forces you to stop and pause and, and, and absorb that information for a second. You're gonna click on what appeals to you, what you're looking for, and you're gonna, the rest of it's just gonna kind of become background noise.

00:56:00 thing for me because that's how I learned so much. Wasn't like, okay, I'm only gonna read this article on this issue, but I'm gonna read the entire damn article. Yes. The issue from front to back multiple times, like you said, and then mine looked the same way.

00:56:15 because I've gone back and re-read them cover to cover every time, cuz I'm looking for one article, but I'm gonna read the whole thing when I open it up. Yes. And, and that just, it, it soak soaks into your brain and in a way that online content just never will be able to.

00:56:30 And, and that's what I think bums out the most. Mike .

00:56:32Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Absolutely. Mike. That, that was so well said, . That was, uh, that's worth, that's worth watching this podcast over for what you just said because the, um, it, it's actually, and [00:56:45] I've read some about this, I've read a lot about it, that it's changing how we read and how we think, you know, online information changes, how we read.

00:57:00 is, is like the two minute YouTube video. You know, they say, you know, if your, if your YouTube video runs over two minutes, you know, you lose x number of percentage of your viewers. So the attention span is getting smaller and, and it [00:57:15] forces people to write differently.

00:57:30 finish up with dessert. You kind of gotta slop it all on one plate now in the first 200 words and try to get 'em to, uh, and hope they'll stay with you for the rest of it.

00:57:41Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: bulleted? Yes. Yes. Well, I just, from my own [00:57:45] experience, I'll tell you, like I, I've written for several industry magazines at this point, but it's, it is for all online content and very frustrating to try and jam a topic into 500 [00:58:00] words, especially like something that you're passionate about and you feel like there's.

00:58:15 be bulleted. You've got three, 400 words to, to teach somebody something, but you, how do you, you can't, how do you do that?

00:58:23Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Mm-hmm. , right? You know, and when you're writing for SEARCHs, you've gotta repeat phrases so many times and all that [00:58:30] stuff.

00:58:40Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: So, so Tom, what can we all do? What can I do to [00:58:45] get sign craft back in print? Well, whatever happened, can we make it happen? , can we start a kick, kick Kickstarter

00:58:52Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: or something here?

00:59:00 I don't know. I, we've thought about revisiting a, a revisiting print as either like an annual or a semi-annual. Magazine and, um, so there, there's always the possibility for one thing, we, we love doing them. So that, that's the greatest [00:59:15] impetus. And I, I, I believe that there are enough of us out there that value print that, that we could, could get an audience.

00:59:28Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: set up a pre-order [00:59:30] right after this market for the annual edition cycle. ,

00:59:33Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: honestly, like if you even just did like an annual, you know, 300 page bound book, you know, something with a hard cover mm-hmm. , that was like a collector's item.

00:59:45 without even thinking about it. I mean, it, it would, well, thank you. And I'm not alone in that. I know that a lot of people would, and I or I, I'd pony up a couple hundred bucks a month, a year for a subscription to, you know, a, a quarterly publication as well.

01:00:00 there are that are just absolutely desperate for that and, and, and, and missing that. And I, I know like, It's a tiny industry, and no matter how much we're all willing to pay, it'll, it'll never overcome the hurdle of, of, you know, the current state of publishing and how expensive and [01:00:15] difficult it would be to, to, to recreate a magazine like SE Craft, you know?

01:00:23Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Well, it would be fun, and like I say, I, I, I'll, uh, I'll keep it on the table here for us. So, , [01:00:30] um, the, uh, you know, the, the, there is, there's just something about, and I mean, all of us had special interest magazines that we got back in those days if you fished or if you were a photographer or whatnot.

01:00:45 for the, that copy of that magazine, whether it was SE Craft or Popular Photography, Um, you know, outdoor sports, American sportsman. So waiting for the magazine was part of the, the deal, you know, getting, getting the mail that early in the month and [01:01:00] expecting to find your, your magazine there, and then you just kinda scrolled it away and save some time that night to start flipping through it.

01:01:12Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: W well, if you ever decide to and you need some [01:01:15] extra manpower, you, you let us know because we will be there with bells on to help you, or at least I will. That's pretty cool. I guess I won't speak for, but I'll,

01:01:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: yeah, no, uh, that's cool. Yeah, I've got, I've got three little girls to think about, but yeah, [01:01:30] my dad, well you guys are on the, the other side of Florida.

01:01:40Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Yeah. I'll move to Florida.

01:01:41Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah, absolutely. If, if ,

01:01:44Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: if Mike [01:01:45] is gonna go to Florida, you know, we're doing something now because Mike hates the, the bombing weather down there.

01:01:51Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: not a big Florida person, but, but I would totally do it in a heartbeat if, if that opportunity ever take.

01:01:57Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Well I can tell you a hurricane, a hurricane like [01:02:00] that last one will, will make a lot of people, not Florida people, , especially some of the, those of us who are here for it. So , but maybe the Florida reputation has been seriously tarnished there with that, but, so

01:02:14Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: for sure. [01:02:15]

01:02:15Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Well, uh, this feels like a, a pretty good closing point guys.

01:02:27Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: I guess I do, I guess I do. There's, there's a [01:02:30] secret that I've heard over and over again in, in the from sign people about, Being successful at this and, and that is show up. You'd be surprised how many people I've told that we published a magazine for sign people [01:02:45] whose their comeback was sign people.

01:03:00 And so really, you know, customer service is, is critical. And, um, you know, the whole underpromise and over-deliver concept, the shops that I know who are most successful, they nail it on the customer relations [01:03:15] and that idea of delivering stuff on time or ahead of time and it contributes to their, to their success.

01:03:30 for in everybody's favor and you can charge more when you do that, when you, when you meet people's needs, I think now more than ever, when you satisfy customers and meet their needs, you can charge for it.

01:03:41Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: So, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's so simple, [01:03:45] so understated. But it's like hugely important what you just said, like, yeah, kinda show up, answer the phones, call people back, do what you said you're gonna do. Yeah. It's so, yeah, it goes

01:03:55Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: without saying kinda, it's kinda like, look back to the, to when you were first in business, you know, [01:04:00] and, and the phone wasn't ringing and, and somebody did call all the way across town for a sign for a hotdog shop.

01:04:15 and, and they loved it and they were happy with you even if it was a mediocre job at the time. But that kind of, you intrigued customers like that.

01:04:27Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: That's well

01:04:27Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: said. Absolutely. Mike, any pardon shots? [01:04:30]

01:04:30Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: I, I can't say it any better than that, honestly. Like that's, that's a brilliant piece of advice. I, I think we should probably do a podcast episode on, you know, on, on that topic, to be honest with you. I think it's something that we've not touched on, um, too aggressively yet, and maybe we can get Tom back to [01:04:45] to, to chat about that, that end of the industry a little bit.

01:04:53Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Yeah. You know, I, I can tell you too that I, I have, and all of us, bill, Dennis, [01:05:00] John, we, we have the utmost respect. For signed people because they have a really unique business, a really unique hole to fill in the economic picture, and they don't give very many kudos.

01:05:15 on or, um, neglected. But, um, to me, they're some of the most interesting creative people in the business world, and they, they do more to for how a community looks and feels than almost everything else, maybe even more [01:05:30] than the architecture. So, like I say, my, my hat is always off to every sign person who's, who's out there slugging it out and, uh, and putting up with all the bologna that, that they have to deal with.

01:05:45 stuff.

01:05:46Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Yeah,

01:05:46Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: definitely. Definitely. Yeah. That's a, that's a good parting line, . I, I, Tom, uh, I, I, I don't even know if I need to ask this, but how can, uh, anybody who was [01:06:00] interested learn more about you and sign craft.

01:06:02Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Oh, okay. Yeah, just hop over to sy craft.com.

01:06:09Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: If, if nobody, if, if somebody is listening and doesn't know sign craft shame on you. Number one, . [01:06:15] Get over to Sy Craft right now. Check it out. . Um, do you guys have any, like, back issues for sale? Like, uh, or those are we do we

01:06:24Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: have about, uh, about, I think it's just over half of the issues still available in.

01:06:30 nice. Great. Re uh, resource, you know, I, I've been meaning to put together some bundled, uh, copies either by the year or something, some packages and Oh yeah, definitely work. Yeah. That way we could work the shipping down to where it was affordable because they are expensive to [01:06:45] ship. But, we'll, we'll work on that and get something on the site maybe where folks can get a, you know, get 20 issues that they can get back through back, go back through and snag some of these great articles.

01:07:00 great stuff that people have shared, it knocks me out. I, I think that folks wrote articles and gave away really good, solid ideas and, and information and it's a shame that they're, that they're just sitting on a shelf somewhere.

01:07:13Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: look into that. You guys should definitely do that [01:07:15] because it's, you know, a sign craft to me was always about those nuggets that you mentioned. Mm-hmm. like, hey, I, if I could just get one nugget out of the magazine. Like I, I, that's going to, I, I could use that nugget for a lifetime, so.

01:07:30 sure. That's a, that's a good point to stop. Tom. Wow. Thanks for coming on. This has been great to have you on. Um, I think I, I, one of my goals at the start of the podcast was to have you on as a guest, so I [01:07:45] could definitely check that box now. I appreciate you, uh, Mike, anything

01:07:50Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: else? I'm just geeking out over here.

01:08:00 it sounds kind of insane to say, but like you've, you and, and what you've done for the industry, I mean, it's al it is always been inspirational to me. So it's been, it's, it's really an honor to have you here and to meet you and, and we really appreciate your time, really, really do well.

01:08:15 have you back if Don't, don't be a stranger. I mean, we, okay. Glad to more information and knowledge and, and stories in your head, I can imagine than just about anybody else in this industry. And I feel like we should, you know, make it like a quarterly thing or something. Just have Tom on and tell his stories from [01:08:30] back in the day.

01:08:33Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: Well, thank you so much and thank Peter for me. I, I really appreciate the invitation and, and I really enjoyed, uh, hanging out with y'all today. That, that's, uh, It's a pretty good feeling to hear [01:08:45] all those good things about Seine Craft, so I'm pretty well juiced for the, for the next quarter, so I'm

01:08:50Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: excellent.

01:08:55Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: you. Thanks, Tom. All right. Take care. Thank you guys for everybody. Take care. All right. We'll see you. Bye-bye. You're welcome.

01:08:59Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: All [01:09:00] right, so that is the episode, Mike. Rapid takeaways, rapid fire takeaways. What, what are, what are we closing this one with? I, I feel like that one was a killer episode.

01:09:11Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: don't, I don't even know where to, where to go with this one, to be [01:09:15] honest with you. Yeah, that was just, that was a like a, Icing on the cake of my career to talk to him and, and interview him on that. It was, it was really cool. I mean, he is definitely one of my idols in the industry and just a, a wealth of knowledge and history in this, in this industry.

01:09:30 I, I think, uh, it's cool to hear some of his stories. I like, I really would love to have him back on and hear more, cuz I, I think that guy could probably talk for, for hours and hours about his experiences and the people he knows in the industry. But yeah, it was, it was awesome. Take away, I think he reinforced something that I'm always preaching about and that is, we're [01:09:45] selling, we're selling design first and foremost.

01:09:57Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: a hundred percent. Like if you're not doing [01:10:00] the work, if you're not acting like a professional, like a, like it or not, when you take a job from a customer, you are now responsible for whatever outcome they're looking for.

01:10:15 business with a sign. Or promoting awareness for their cause, or, uh, even just driving signups to the peewee football team, whate, whatever that is. Like, you've gotta rise to the occasion and, and make it

01:10:29Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: happen. So, yeah. [01:10:30] And it's a, it's a topic that's come up more than once on this, you know, with our guests.

01:10:45 also really like that Tom closed it out by saying, just show up, answer the phone.

01:10:58Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Yeah, I did as well. [01:11:00] Uh, you know, to me it was more about a, just taking nuggets from that conversation and taking nuggets from Sy Craft, like that's a, that really resonated with me, you know, over the years I feel like, When, when I've tried to like, [01:11:15] take on too much at, at one time or like, Hey, I'm gonna learn this, or I'm gonna learn that.

01:11:30 Sy Craft was just like, Hey, here's one technique that I could probably use in the next week or two for a particular project. Mm-hmm. , you know, I could be inspired by the rest of it, but usually I always got one nice little technique or layout that I might be able to emulate in my own [01:11:45] designs.

01:11:45Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: So to, to not take at least one thing away from every issue is sign craft I think is impossible or you're just not reading it. should, like, everyone is, is amazing. Yeah.

01:11:56Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Cool. All right. Well, before we close out, I would like to [01:12:00] thank our sponsor, GCI Digital. If you are looking for a wholesale or trade printing partner for large format or wide format or grand format printing, I, I've seen those new [01:12:15] printers that TJ and the team have got.

01:12:30 gci, digital owner, TJ Beat Act. We had 'em on the podcast, episode nine. I wanna say check 'em out. If you would like, if you are interested in being a guest on the podcast, send us an [01:12:45] email at, hey, better sign shop.com.

01:13:00 on Facebook. It is our free community for sign shop owners. And, uh, if you like everything else, take a look at Mike's website, letterbox Sign design, scope, some of his work.

01:13:15 after you. Alright, what is it? D M C A. You'll get the take down notice. Be inspired, don't blindly copy.

01:13:24Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: Thanks, Brent. Sounds great. Love it.

01:13:28Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: All right. All right guys. We'll catch you on the [01:13:30] next one. Thanks for listening. We appreciate you.

01:13:33Michael Riley: #583e31;">Michael Riley: If you liked this episode,

01:13:35Tom McIltrot: #c50052;">Tom McIltrot: make sure you hit subscribe to get all the latest episodes, and check out our website, better sign shop.com.

01:13:45 growing your shop. Thanks for listening.

Elevating Our Craft // Interview with Tom McIltrot - Founder of SignCraft Magazine

GCI Digital Imaging