On this episode
Listen on
You’ve seen his work even if you didn’t know his name. Legendary sign crafter Shane Durnford joins us for a mindblowing conversation about our chosen craft. 🤯 Shane opens up about his personal experience with burnout. And he also shares invaluable advice for those looking to venture into high end signage – revealing a little bit about his secret sauce. Another can’t miss episode!
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This episode is sponsored by:
GCI Digital Imaging
Your large/grand format trade printing partner
Owner T.J. Bedacht and his team focus on providing old-school customer service. You can check out Episode #9 to see for yourself. So if you're looking for a wholesale print provider for banners, coroplast signs, vehicle wraps, and other digitally printed graphics
Learn more and place your first order at https://gci-digital.com.
---
In this episode...
00:00:00 Intro
00:01:30 Catching up
00:04:20 Bryant’s Appendix surgery
00:09:00 Guest intro
00:13:00 Shane’s backstory
00:16:10 First high-relief carving
00:17:25 Shane’s designs / Emotion and commerce
00:24:00 Shane’s not a sign guy
00:34:18 Stepping away from the industry
00:41:10 Avoiding burnout
00:50:15 Obsession to detail
00:56:25 Creative Process
01:07:45 Advice for sign shop
01:15:40 Future Plans
01:19:29 What Shane wants to be remembered for
01:24:07 Shane’s workshop
01:27:02 Outro
-##-##-
Links from the Show
Recommended Books
------
The Old Way of Seeing
https://www.amazon.com/Old-Way-Seeing-How-Back/dp/039574010X/
Shane’s Work
------
It speaks for itself… Check out his website
https://jaycefoxstudios.com/environmental-sign-design
Shane’s Workshop
------
If you’re at all interested in furthering your design skills and becoming a better sign maker, check out the details and join Shane’s in-person workshop.
https://jaycefoxstudios.com/sign-design-workshop
Other Signmakers to Follow
------
Dirk Rampling
https://www.dirkssigns.com.au/
Roger Cox
https://houseofsignsco.com/carved-dimensional-signs-colorado/
Dan Sawatzky
https://www.imaginationcorporation.com/attractions
-##-##-
Ready to systemize and scale your shop?
Start by creating your free account on the Better Sign Shop platform at https://my.bettersignshop.com/
Are you a sign or print shop owner?
Join the Better Sign Shop Community - our free Facebook group exclusively for shop owners and managers (https://www.facebook.com/groups/bettersignshopmastermind)
-##-##-
Want to follow the crusty sign guys?
Bryant from Better Sign Shop
- Better Sign Shop Website: https://www.bettersignshop.com
- Better Sign Shop Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/bettersignshop
Michael from Letterbox Sign Design
- Letterbox Sign Design Website: https://www.letterboxsigndesign.com/
- Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/letterboxsigndesign
Peter from Sign Shop Consulting
- Sign Shop Consulting Website: https://www.signshopconsulting.com/
-##-##-
Interested in being a guest on the show? Have questions you'd like to hear us answer on the air? Reach out to us.
---
This episode is sponsored by:
GCI Digital Imaging
Your large/grand format trade printing partner
Owner T.J. Bedacht and his team focus on providing old-school customer service. You can check out Episode #9 to see for yourself. So if you're looking for a wholesale print provider for banners, coroplast signs, vehicle wraps, and other digitally printed graphics
Learn more and place your first order at https://gci-digital.com.
---
In this episode...
00:00:00 Intro
00:01:30 Catching up
00:04:20 Bryant’s Appendix surgery
00:09:00 Guest intro
00:13:00 Shane’s backstory
00:16:10 First high-relief carving
00:17:25 Shane’s designs / Emotion and commerce
00:24:00 Shane’s not a sign guy
00:34:18 Stepping away from the industry
00:41:10 Avoiding burnout
00:50:15 Obsession to detail
00:56:25 Creative Process
01:07:45 Advice for sign shop
01:15:40 Future Plans
01:19:29 What Shane wants to be remembered for
01:24:07 Shane’s workshop
01:27:02 Outro
-##-##-
Links from the Show
Recommended Books
------
The Old Way of Seeing
https://www.amazon.com/Old-Way-Seeing-How-Back/dp/039574010X/
Shane’s Work
------
It speaks for itself… Check out his website
https://jaycefoxstudios.com/environmental-sign-design
Shane’s Workshop
------
If you’re at all interested in furthering your design skills and becoming a better sign maker, check out the details and join Shane’s in-person workshop.
https://jaycefoxstudios.com/sign-design-workshop
Other Signmakers to Follow
------
Dirk Rampling
https://www.dirkssigns.com.au/
Roger Cox
https://houseofsignsco.com/carved-dimensional-signs-colorado/
Dan Sawatzky
https://www.imaginationcorporation.com/attractions
-##-##-
Ready to systemize and scale your shop?
Start by creating your free account on the Better Sign Shop platform at https://my.bettersignshop.com/
Are you a sign or print shop owner?
Join the Better Sign Shop Community - our free Facebook group exclusively for shop owners and managers (https://www.facebook.com/groups/bettersignshopmastermind)
-##-##-
Want to follow the crusty sign guys?
Bryant from Better Sign Shop
- Better Sign Shop Website: https://www.bettersignshop.com
- Better Sign Shop Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/bettersignshop
Michael from Letterbox Sign Design
- Letterbox Sign Design Website: https://www.letterboxsigndesign.com/
- Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/letterboxsigndesign
Peter from Sign Shop Consulting
- Sign Shop Consulting Website: https://www.signshopconsulting.com/
-##-##-
Interested in being a guest on the show? Have questions you'd like to hear us answer on the air? Reach out to us.
Transcripts are automatically generated with AI and may contain errors.
00:00:00Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit. Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, [00:00:15] workflow, growth, and more. You are listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts, Peter Unis, Michael Riley
00:00:27Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: and Bryant Gillespie.[00:00:30]
00:00:38Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Before we jump into the episode, I'd like to give a shout out to our sponsor, G C I Digital Imaging Grand [00:00:45] Format Printer to the Trade. We talk a lot about outsourcing on the podcast and the importance of having a. Good partners and G C I Digital Imaging is a good partner to have. Owner TJ Beak and his team focus on providing killer [00:01:00] customer service just the way grandmother used to make it.
00:01:15 looking for a high quality trade printer for banners, wraps, and other printed graphics that your customers throw at you, check out GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com.
00:01:30 welcome back to another episode of the Better Sign Shop podcast. As always, while Peter, the sign shop, Yoda is missing in action today, I think he's on vacation. Uh, so kudos to you, Peter. Enjoy vacation. My other [00:01:45] co-host, Michael, the Sign Design Magic. Mike Samurai. Chimichanga Chimichanga Burrito.
00:02:00 guys. Sign guy. Michael Riley. How are you my friend? Good,
00:02:05Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: how are you?
00:02:07Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: You look good in the, the, the sweater
00:02:09Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: there, the sweat. Yeah. You know what, it was like 95 degrees here last week and this week it's 50. We've got the heat on. [00:02:15] It's ah, have the flu before long with this crazy weather.
00:02:20Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Never on the East coast. We've been slammed with rain. I got to spend Memorial Day cleaning up my basement, which was, uh, had a nice bit [00:02:30] of standing water in it, so that was fun.
00:02:33Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: That's always fun. That, that makes me, one of the few things that makes me thankful that I don't have a basement. I've been there a few times and it's always a nightmare.
00:02:44Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: It was supposed to be a [00:02:45] man cave. It is actually a kid's playroom. You know, I was fortunate that we put like the vinyl waterproof, like planking floor down there because I knew that this was gonna happen. Happens like once a year whenever we just get like a nasty rain. But the worst part is just [00:03:00] moving all the stuff out of the way so you can flip the couches over so that they dry properly.
00:03:06Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: And this is the room that you just had remodeled not too long ago too, right?
00:03:09Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Oh, I'll do that. It's been like the pandemic. It doesn't feel like that long ago, but it was, it's [00:03:15] honestly like, uh, yeah, like three or four
00:03:17Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: years ago at this point. Wow. Yeah. That's crazy, isn't it? It feels like it was two months ago.
00:03:26Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Boy. So what's new with you, man? What are you, what are you've [00:03:30] been up to?
00:03:30Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: I don't, oh, not much. Just, uh, just staying pretty busy, uh, pretty steady with design work and, uh, working more than I wish I was. And, uh, just started painting the house. Part of the house project has progressed to, uh, [00:03:45] the exterior paint stage, so that's a lot of fun.
00:04:00 ladder, so, oh,
00:04:01Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: you should have got a lift.
00:04:03Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Yeah, if I could get one on my yard, somebody, oh, hey.
00:04:07Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Surely we've got somebody that listens to the podcast that could bring over a truck and just Yeah. Right. Set you up in the bucket.
00:04:13Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Anybody in Oregon [00:04:15] hook me up free chimichangas.
00:04:18Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, I'm happy to be doing this episode of the podcast. I don't. I, I think this is the first one since my emergency appendectomy.
00:04:30 fun experience. Yeah.
00:04:31Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Yeah. I wasn't sure if you wanted to talk about that, but how, how are you recovering? Uh, yeah, I'm happy
00:04:35Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: to talk about it. I, I will say word of advice to the audience if you are over the age of 30, and even if you're not, um, but more so [00:04:45] if you're over the age of 30, if you are experiencing pains that are kind of weird, you're not really sure what it is or don't just ignore it, go to the doctor.
00:05:00 Had some stomach pain. I had assumed, just like I've had acid reflux for years and, you know, I fought with it on and off. I'd assume it was something like that, or maybe an ulcer, something non-serious. [00:05:15] Got involved in meetings and kind of went away, ignored it.
00:05:30 go get the kids. My wife's driving like I'm sweating in the passenger seat. It's like we're getting up there on the pain scale, like six, six or eight maybe come back.
00:05:45 ulcer. Mike's like, Hey, try pickle juice. I'm standing at the refrigerator like trying not to gag and suck back some of this pickle juice. Wait 45 minutes to an hour, still no relief. And then the pain is just mounting at this point. [00:06:00] Uh, go to the local urgent care.
00:06:15 cough and give everybody covid or what was gonna happen, you know? So finally I see the doctor and they send me to the er.
00:06:30 Damn. Buta, bing, buta, boon.
00:06:31Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Well, I'm glad that you, you know, it sucks, but I guess it could have been worse. I'm glad that you, um, were in and out quick and seems like you had a really quick recovery. Sorry about the pickle juice.
00:06:43Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: yeah. That [00:06:45] was by far not the worst part of it. It was pretty bad, but I'm sure it wasn't, not the worst part of it. Yeah.
00:06:51Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: For,
00:06:52Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: for now, modern medicine is great. I've got three little scars on my stomach. Like the, the worst part of that was I'm a, this is probably [00:07:00] tmmi for the audience, but I'm a naturally pretty hairy guy.
00:07:15 just go ahead and like shave all of it off. Now I'm in like the Wolf Man stage.
00:07:20Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Man, that makes me think of the scene from, uh, the 40 year Old Virgin where, uh, Steve Cor goes.
00:07:27Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Oh, oh, Kelly Clarkson. Yes.
00:07:29Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: [00:07:30] That's, I think we need to see like a side by side comparison of, of, of you and, and Steve Corll from that moment. Oh God. See if, who
00:07:38Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: wore it best. Yeah, babe. That'll get the next cease and desist letter. A hundred percent.
00:07:44Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: [00:07:45] Well, I'm glad that you, uh, recovered so quickly and it wasn't, um, I mean, I, I wish it was something less serious for you, but I'm glad it wasn't anything more serious.
00:08:00 So at least this was something that Yeah. Stuck temporarily, but it's not a long-term thing,
00:08:03Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: so. Yeah. And the, the appendix is useless, so yeah. Why not get rid
00:08:08Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: of it? Did you keep it?
00:08:12Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Uh, I didn't ask. I, I should have [00:08:15] though. I did go back, feel like they shoulda that I went back this You could like, sent that to somebody. Yeah. The doctor said the path pathology results came back and he said, um, it did not rupture, but it was very close to rupturing.
00:08:30
00:08:30Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: anyway, I guess they caught it in time. I, I've heard that's just like absolutely miserable. If it does, does rupture.
00:08:36Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: It's a pretty, oh yeah. I was, I was a total baby about it. Like, I, I was, you know, I was like, they asked for your pain scale and I was like, oh, it's 10. It's 10, it's 10. [00:08:45] And my wife's over there like, eh, like childbirth bro.
00:08:56Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: that's hilarious.
00:08:57Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Well, so I'm [00:09:00] excited for the episode today, man.
00:09:01Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: As am I I'm, I'm so close. What
00:09:03Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: do we, what have we
00:09:04Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: got on the slate? We have got, uh, gentleman by the name of Shane Deford Canada. He is, uh, been around for a long time and he is a [00:09:15] prolific sign, carver sign, painter, sign designer.
00:09:30 absolutely phenomenal. It's on a, it's on another level. I, I, there's a lot of really talented, fantastic sign makers out there, but something about Shane's work is just, I don't know, it calls to me or something.
00:09:45 uh, pick his brain a little bit. And, uh, yeah,
00:09:47Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: I, I think for me it is, it kind of goes back to like the signage that you got in the business for. Totally.
00:09:55Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Yeah. Like, yeah, everybody gets into this industry. They wanna make signs like he makes, I mean, it's like, [00:10:00] You the pinnacle of handcrafted signage that, you know, anybody would be jealous to have this guy's portfolio.
00:10:07Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Super excited about it. Couple different threads I think we're gonna touch on. I know that [00:10:15] like Shane was in the industry for a long time, took a break, I'm assuming because of burnout. Uh, very real story for you and myself. So curious to get his take on that. And then, you know, I [00:10:30] I, I feel like there's a lot of folks out there who want to do this type of work, uh, but don't necessarily know where to get started with it.
00:10:45
00:10:45Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Yeah. I'm excited to talk to him about both of those topics for sure. Especially the burnout topic. I, I think that's, I mean, you know me, I mean, I'm, I'm always kinda going off on tangents about mental health and, and uh, you know, keeping your head about you [00:11:00] in this industry cuz it, it can, can definitely drive you crazy.
00:11:15 know, probably true of any industry or career, but, uh, something that probably everybody can, can relate to, to some degree or another.
00:11:23Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Oh yeah, yeah. Me as well. Yeah. You, uh, I, I definitely want to do like a, a, [00:11:30] a serious like mental health episode, but I think this will be a good primer leading up to that as well.
00:11:37Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Yeah, yeah, definitely. For sure.
00:11:39Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: All right, well, uh, let's bring him on. All
00:11:41Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: right, here we are. We've got Shane Deford.
00:11:45 How are you
00:11:46Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: today? I'm good, thanks. Yeah. Good to be here. Awesome. Thanks for asking me on the, uh, on this podcast, Mike. Well, I've
00:11:53Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: been, I've been geeking You
00:11:54Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: gotta set 'em up a little better than that, dude. Come on now.
00:11:58Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: I don't normally do the intros, [00:12:00] man.
00:12:00Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I don't Yeah, right on the spot.
00:12:03Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: I, I just, I just like, I did the, the lead up to him before we brought 'em on, so maybe you should do the intro.
00:12:12Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: No, without a doubt. Shane really doesn't [00:12:15] need any introduction. If you don't know his name, you've seen his work a hundred different places. We were saying before we jumped on with you, Shane, that like the work that you do is like some of the, like the work that we got into the [00:12:30] industry to do, like the really beautiful carved signage that kind of blends art and commerce at the same time.
00:12:40Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Was that solid? Yeah, that's good. That okay? Pretty much No, that I'm just [00:12:45] writing up my workshop here. And that was, Basically what define what sign makers should be so problem solving with our full solutions. So yeah. You you got it. Nailed it.
00:12:57Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Perfect. Well, uh, for those who may not be [00:13:00] familiar with you, why don't you kind of go into your backstory a little bit?
00:13:05Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Well, I was, um, I started in 81, 82 as a sign writer. I went to George Brown College for sign writing, and I was a sign writer for eight years. And, [00:13:15] you know, just plywood signs, trucks, everything. And I was okay. I, I was a little bored with my work. Uh, I felt I was stuck. And to be honest, I was going to leave the industry, especially when plotters came on.
00:13:30 met a mentor who's a, a designer and a branding person, and he said, so I'll help you out. I'll mentor you. And so for the next five years I stayed, I opened up a studio in Crear and, um, He taught me everything I [00:13:45] need to know about color marketing, branding, design, and then I, you know, taught myself how to carve at the same time, and it just, things switched.
00:14:00 changed my clients, and it just, um, it just showed me the road to the never ending journey of learning and improving and striving.
00:14:09Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: So I I, I'm curious about that, Shane, you said that it kind of, kind of switched your [00:14:15] outlook on, on the industry in general.
00:14:30 works of art. I mean, these are, these, these definitely take signage to an elevated level that you rarely see.
00:14:43Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: again? Yeah, I [00:14:45] think it is shifted my mind how I approached design and approached the sign industry. You know, I was very much a sign writer and a sign link, and I learned, uh, through the mentoring is that if I changed the [00:15:00] perception of sign making, so if I had someone come into my shop, I, I would, uh, I was, everything that represented sign making, I, I was not, for instance, my business cards looked like banker's cards.
00:15:15 studio. So everything, it was changing the perception of writers. And so through a series of process, I would, could educate my client and get. And get them to, to invest more in the product. So, and what [00:15:30] I would do is say, yeah, I, I can do that. I had no idea how to do these things.
00:15:45 it was easy for them. Once they were educated, they could see it was a great investment. And rather than selling, I would, I would just educate them and they'd say, well, I wanna spend this amount of money.
00:16:00 was effortless that way. And then, After that it was up to me to perform and to develop my design skills and my sense of color and shadow and all the rest. And it was a learning curve for sure. Do you remember like,
00:16:13Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: what the, like the [00:16:15] do like one of the first, or like second projects that you did, like going from like sign writing into actually like carved like high end stuff?
00:16:28Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Well, my sign was the first one and I [00:16:30] had to re carve it three or four times cause it was crap the begin. So every time I looked at it like, I could do better now. So yeah, it was, um, I remember my first high relief carving because it, I used a book called High Relief Carving, I forget his [00:16:45] name.
00:17:00 steep, but, Yeah, it's, it took a while for me to grow into that part. You know, I have a lot of work that doesn't look very good.
00:17:15 you know? It's really about adopting this process that just allows me to, it's like a revealing process. It allows me to keep to, it's like removing what's not necessary, if that makes
00:17:26Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: sense. That, that, that's interesting.
00:17:30 I was studying, I, I went back through your Instagram page and your website, kind of studying some of your work the other day to prepare for a conversation today. And that's, that's an interesting take on it, removing what doesn't need to be there. And I, I think that something that all sign designers probably struggle with to, to [00:17:45] one degree or another is, is, is the art of restraint and, you know, where, what do we remove?
00:18:00 more than just about anybody else's, I've seen definitely strikes a balance between what's there and what's not there and, and, and, and what color is present and what color is not there.
00:18:15 shadow to create color, for lack of a better term. That, and it's, it really, I mean, I think it, it's strikes you especially, it strikes me as a designer anyway, to see how. Simple and clean, and I'm not try trying to get [00:18:30] the right, I'm, I'm not doing it justice.
00:18:44Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: That is interesting. [00:18:45] Yeah. I, um, one of the first things this mentor told me was, it's always about one thing.
00:19:00 the, to the piece. Everything else is in support of that. So, um, that was a, that alone was a huge lesson. And then when building approaching design, I build a criteria.
00:19:15 as much information as possible. Uh, everything, even I don't analyze it or, or think of design at the point I just, I'm searching and gathering. And then from that list I'll take a, I'll build a criteria, all the key [00:19:30] points that describe that, that business, that person, you know, it's things about where they wanna be, what kind of traffic is going by the door, the architecture, their, their building, the history of that, history of them.
00:19:45 like putting all these ingredients into a recipe and it gets distilled down. It's gets boiled down to the, it's essence. So anytime I'm designing, I'll just create, I'll look for that one thread that runs through the whole design. [00:20:00] And of course I'll take into consideration where it's going because it should become part of the building or its surroundings and that's what gives it, its grounding and a sense of belonging.
00:20:15 try to keep my mind out of it. I don't think it through, I just kind of feel it alone. I. Something that just comes up, pops up a picture or an idea, and I'll put it in. I won't question it, I'll just put it in. And how I cross reference that is, does it [00:20:30] visually, does it align with the criteria?
00:20:45 So what I try to do with the signs is to communicate in an emotional way. So it was there, they're essentially visual cues and they have to line up with this criteria.
00:21:00 me thinking what it should be. So I think it's like a bottom up feel, uh, approach. Then top down, do you
00:21:06Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: have this criteria listed out, like at the start of the process, or are you like going through and like sketching, like, okay, like here's the, the [00:21:15] main notes that I want to hit, or is it just, it's all like up here or in
00:21:18Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: here?
00:21:30 language is an emotional language. So you can, you know, inject sense of smell and sound and all these little cues in there. You don't, it's not a conscious thing. So when I, when I list this criteria, I [00:21:45] just gather, list the criteria.
00:22:00 start to choose components, like, what are the sign shape, like, where's it gonna go, how big does it have to be? So those questions have to be asked, but, so this criteria just kind of guides it.
00:22:15 a, everything, all the background stuff. So, When you do, when you are creating it, it's believable and it's related closely to the business. So if someone's driving by or walking by, they gather so much information from that, [00:22:30] such a simple image that it, it not only just entices people to come in, but it targets the right clientele for the business.
00:22:45 when I people come into my studio, the conversation started with, I'm different. I'm more expensive than anyone, but this is what you're gonna get. And I'm a designer first and a sign expert first, and I just happened to craft my own signs.
00:23:00 signed guy, so to speak. So right away, and I aligned myself in the language and the surroundings as. As an architect would. So their perception has changed. So if you can change their perception, now you're having [00:23:15] a different conversation, now you can start talking about what their investment will be and and educating them.
00:23:30 I never. Pushed it. Uh, you know, I just, you know, go home and think about it and if you're still interested, we'll we can make an appointment. There was never a walk-in traffic to be my appointment.
00:23:45 Yeah, well, exclusive. So those little exclusive paints and two, you know, with the signed company, they, even when I had nothing and I didn't have any money, I didn't have any business, I tried to make my front of my shop look successful. And I was told years ago [00:24:00] that people with money wanna be part of success.
00:24:13Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, I, I would [00:24:15] say it runs counter to like, what most of the audience does is like, Hey, we are sign guys. Like we need to advertise. We need like giant channel letters out front of our shop.
00:24:30 every sign, particular product that we sell. Uh, so it's, it's interesting to hear you say things like that. Like, Hey, immediately, like I'm shifting gears into like, I'm not a signed guy.
00:24:41Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Yeah. And I have to background on that. You know, I was [00:24:45] doing a lot of, uh, truck lettering and crappy little a hundred dollars signs with names on it.
00:25:00 believed in and long, it's a long game strategy, but it. Put me into areas that I wouldn't normally get into. You know about being a consultant.
00:25:15 And so, yeah, it's, it's a long, it's not gonna, it doesn't happen overnight, but, and there was times too where I would refuse work that would come back to haunt me if I wouldn't put my name on anything that was not of quality design. [00:25:30] Gotcha.
00:25:31Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: And, and like those projects that you turned down, were they at points where like you had enough work coming in that it, like you could turn that away?
00:25:45 but I,
00:25:45Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: it drove my wife crazy saying, what are you doing? I said, no, believe me, it's gonna work. Cause sometimes, you know, I had to, when people come in, I had to evaluate them too. Had to parse them. It was, do you wanna hire [00:26:00] me and do I wanna work for you?
00:26:15 sacrifices have to be made.
00:26:18Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: I, I feel like you've just obliterated every sign guys business model and like the first 10 minutes here I'm looking.
00:26:25Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Well, there is, you know, and that's, it's the kind of thing if you wanna [00:26:30] go into making these types of signs, you know, for me, I had to be, I had to be creative. I had to always be challenged. And I, I got bored easy. But there was a place, you know, some people command and I said, I, I don't want all this, I just want a sign.
00:26:45 I never said I couldn't or wouldn't I, I wouldn't turn them away. I would say, here's someone that could take. Better care of your needs. And they, you know, wrap people do wraps and large format printing. They do that really well, but they could also have two parts of their [00:27:00] business.
00:27:15 gets better clients too. I find, you know, you're less, less about price, more about the quality.
00:27:23Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: But that really resonates. Mike, you look deep in thought. Yeah,
00:27:29Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: no, I, [00:27:30]
00:27:30Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I, um, it looked like some of my clients that come in the door, it's like, okay,
00:27:36Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: the are just turning in my head. I'm like, I'm like thinking, okay, I've gotta like rewrite all the copies.[00:27:45]
00:28:00 sign shop or not? And, and it is really interesting to like, I mean, you are taking sign shop model and like, just we're talking about fires.
00:28:15 it's, I, I wish that it, it was possible for everybody in this industry to do what you're doing. I mean, in reality, you know, depending on the market you're in, in, in your, your skill level, obviously it's not, I mean, you, you've got the, you, you've got the toolbox to back up, you [00:28:30] know, being a little choosy on it.
00:28:40Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Well, you know, I, you know, I think it can apply. I had a lot of [00:28:45] guys come to my workshops. I had CNC machines and they, I didn't abandon the sign crafting. I just, I just wanted to appear.
00:29:00 Signwriter do. And, and so it was like lifting the craft cuz on my sign I said, you know, Shane Erford sign crafter. And it was a, it was like a, an honored craft.
00:29:15 you any sign shop that does any type of work, it's the same approach in the way of, I'm a designer first, I'm a sign expert and I, you don't tell me what you want because that's not letting me do my job. You tell me everything about your business and I'll.
00:29:30 And I'll bring it in and I'll turn around and I'll give you the de design you need so that, that's a whole switch around. Because I know a lot of sign shops and myself, I get frustrated. People come in and this is what I want. I saw this down the road, I like this other thing. So you create [00:29:45] this Frankenstein, so to speak.
00:30:00 I'm a signed expert. So that changes everything and, and educate why that's important and what.
00:30:15 why I do it. So whether it's a wrap or any kind of signage, it is design oriented.
00:30:23Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: You know, I, I feel like maybe you're not really backing away from the idea of being a sign maker or a signwriter or [00:30:30] sign painter or whatever you wanna call it.
00:30:45 say that. I don't mean that in a bad way against them, but, you know, I, but you know what I mean,
00:30:50Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: like, you know, read the room.
00:30:52Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: the
00:30:52Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: room. No, I don't care. I mean, I've been there. I've, I've, look, I've sl I have, I have flung my [00:31:00] share of vinyl. And polluted our visual world more than I ever should have. And I, I'm the first, yeah. I'm the, I'm the first one to admit that. And anybody in this industry who's been doing this long enough needs to be humble enough to step back and say, you know what?
00:31:15 thought I was gonna go with this and this. You know, I'm not doing the type of work that I wanted to do, and I'm, I'm not the type of sign maker that I wanted to be. And I think Shane's attitude here, or, or outlook on it, I think is the reason that he is doing, you know, the type [00:31:30] of work that we all wish we were.
00:31:33Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna get on the soapbox a minute and say like, I think a lot of it is driven by the equipment and like the, the technology and like the manufacturers. It's like, Hey, how fast can you [00:31:45] print? How wide can you print? Like, you know, a lot of it is driven by that. Totally. And, and just cost mean I've been equipment being stupid cheap compared to what it used to be as well.
00:32:00 the
00:32:00Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: payment price. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:32:03Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Or the equipment being so stupid expensive that now you feel beholden to it and you've got to, you know, churn out vinyl by the pound or crappy banners and, you know, stickers all day long. Just just to make your, you know, your payment on the printer every [00:32:15] month.
00:32:28Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: comes along with a faster [00:32:30] machine or a better machine. And, you know, I think it too, I think people are, are shops, you know, if they're tired of just losing jobs or people shopping for the lowest price and they all look the same, you know, I heard [00:32:45] Tom mention that it's just all in the mud, you know, it's just trying to grab, grab the best fruit off the truck.
00:33:00 You're straight through, you know, man laddering carving, but I have nothing against vinyl or C n C machines. But you're right, it if they tend to lean on that too heavily, it's just a tool. The designs first just design to the criteria designed [00:33:15] to the business, adds value to their design, which adds value to the signs sign what adds value to their business, and they start to rise above the rest.
00:33:30 and we're going to make you money by having you invest in our company. And the fact that we are designers, not just pretty, not pretty, but strategic connective design that will the psychology [00:33:45] of design.
00:34:00 know you guys, uh, agree. It's, it's all about the design.
00:34:04Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. There's definitely a lot of shops out there that just have a vinyl cutter or wide format printer that are producing absolutely phenomenal, mind-blowing, beautiful work that is designed, you know, designed [00:34:15] first, designed forward.
00:34:30
00:34:30Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Yeah. You know, that's, uh, I worked all the time. I, I mean, I loved it. I mentioned to Bryant before, I said, I get up at three in the morning.
00:34:45 would pop in my, I'm gonna go down there and make that. And many times I'd work around the clock and I loved what I did and I had a young family, two buildings and, and renovating and, you know, I'd have to be honest, a bad marriage.
00:35:00 I just thought if I just work harder, longer, things can get through the other side of it. You know,
00:35:09Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: you hit me right in the heart.
00:35:12Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Unbelievably familiar. Yeah. That, [00:35:15] and then I just feel it coming. I felt that it was just my bone marrow was being, my life. Energy was leaving me. And I was doing workshops and I was still designing.
00:35:30 One day, I, I came in the shop. I couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't pick up my tools. It was the strangest phenomenon. I just stood there. I said, I can't. So I, I just, same day I ended, said, I don't wanna be married anymore. I don't [00:35:45] wanna do this anymore.
00:36:00 plan, only because I just couldn't do the work anymore. Nothing wrong at work. I was, business was great. Um, it was going exactly where I wanted to go.
00:36:15 the gas tank. So, yeah, I just took hiatus. I thought, you know, I'll give it a bit of time. I'll come back to sign crafting and it's, I did one last year. Uh, I designed it and they couldn't find someone to make it. So [00:36:30] I thought, ah, I'll make it. And it was, it was tough.
00:36:45 love the whole idea that having something draw it from their stuff and form out of thin air. And there it is in three dimension, interacting with the landscape and people and yeah, there's nothing like it really.
00:37:00 It's, it brings in design, psychology, you know, environmental design, you know, have to bring in so much knowledge. You know, I've learned about so many things cuz every job I do, the design part of the criteria is, is research. [00:37:15] You know, for, if it's an old building, when was the building built? How would they have thought about things back then?
00:37:30 established same time the building was. So, and that's, yeah, so it, I I love the craft. I really do. I just burn burnout's. Not good.
00:37:40Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: And what, what, what year did you hit the wall? 2010. [00:37:45] Mm-hmm. Okay.
00:37:50Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Yeah, pretty much. Wow. I did one, I did one, uh, one carving. But yeah, essentially until last year, I, I, you know, design logos and [00:38:00] package design and the same approach to all of it, but it just didn't have the same satisfaction as sign crafting and working with my hands.
00:38:10Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Okay. So talk to me about the period. In between like you [00:38:15] were a, a cop for a bit. No, I did.
00:38:18Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I, oh yeah. Oh, you, I applied, yeah, I applied for it, but there was hiring freeze on that. Well, that, how am I gonna do now? Right. Oh, gotcha. I hung out onto all my equipment and carving tools and uh, [00:38:30] you know, I, I still studied design, I still, you know, approach, you know, package design and, and the rest, you know, I enjoyed all that.
00:38:45 just, I became a better designer, I think, cuz I still follow that path of discovery and, and just, you essentially, you just get, I just, with good design, it finds you, so you need just to get out of the way. So I, that was [00:39:00] the practice. So each project that came along was practicing that and I designed a few signs as well, so, Yeah, it was, it was tough because it was so much part of my life, so much part of my identity [00:39:15] and, and I was, you know, in a community assigned community and in the small community where I, I had my business for 25 years, so it was, yeah, it's a kinda lost my identity for a while.
00:39:30 it resonates with love with the craft. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something love with the craft. Yeah. And, and, and it was most frustrating time of my life cuz something I loved to do that I could do well and I had such a, a healthy business, I just [00:39:45] couldn't even look, I couldn't even open my toolbox. I went to, they asked me to come in and fill in for someone at the, one of the letterhead meets down at the Sign museum Cincinnati.
00:40:00 I said, I can't do this. I just like, I'll just tell 'em how to do it. So, but that, you know, that's how, that's how strong burnout is when you hit that wall. It's a hard road back. And I, I think it's for anybody who, who just, it's imbalance.
00:40:15 And I think the way to fix it is just kind of swing it, you know, the benzo has swing back the other way before it finds its, you know, center again. And what
00:40:23Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: worked well for you to, to come back from the burnout?
00:40:29Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I think, yeah. I [00:40:30] had to, I had to, for me personally, I had to get rid of, I had to come to an understanding about how I came to burnout and, and let go of the past.
00:40:45 standing here now and I still love what I do. So I just kind of, and it with that was that simple. And I love my sign crafting days. Not so much, but I'm going more into carving the same approach to architectural carving, but that allows [00:41:00] me to really go further into the elaborate work carving and such.
00:41:13Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Okay. Do [00:41:15] you think there's a way to avoid burnout or do you think it's just like part of the process, uh, like part of the journey? No, I, I think it, yeah, fine. You know, for me, like I, I don't know that I, I would be sitting here today without like, flaming out [00:41:30] as hard as I did back when I was, you know, mid twenties of working 60, 80 hours a week and yeah, not taking care of myself and just burning the candle at both ends.
00:41:40Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: You know, my dad, I should have learned from my father. He was a, had his own [00:41:45] iron, iron shop fabricating iron, and he said, if I can't make my living nine to five, then I, I won't do it. And he always took time to, I. To do other things. I think, you know, as in design, as in nature, as in life, if we don't, uh, [00:42:00] work towards balance, imbalances will, something will force us to find, to go the other way, will, whether it's health, whether it's emotional health, or whether it's, whatever it may be, it just forces you to [00:42:15] find centric and it wants to find center so it'll correct itself.
00:42:30 brutal And uh, you know, a lot of people thought, what if he, you know, if I'm leaving the industry, what does it hold for the rest of us? But I don't think they ever, the story was ever out there about me burning up personally as I did.
00:42:45 business, everything. So, yeah, just kind I, you know, I just jumped out of a moving vehicle. That's what I
00:42:52Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: did.
00:42:55Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: But hey, I was so loved. I luck of the craft.
00:42:59Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: [00:43:00] Yeah, I, I mean, if, if the vehicle's going off the cliff, like what else are you gonna do at that point, you know what,
00:43:05Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I wish I would've heard that Let go. That could save me some time. Yeah. So
00:43:11Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: in, in hindsight, do you feel like hitting that wall could have been [00:43:15] preventable or at least you could have slammed on the brakes earlier so you didn't hit it as hard or Absolutely.
00:43:23Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: gonna happen? No, I, um, yeah, I could have easily prevented it by taking more time to, [00:43:30] so I'm not working today, I'm not at, this are my times and that's it. Nothing more. And then balance it with more fun things, you know, there was a time I didn't get outta my workloads, I just.
00:43:45 my, we lived upstairs, my studio was downstairs, so there was times where I would leave the building for, for a week at a time. And yeah, I could have prevented a lot of that. Just balance, balance, life more, exercise, more fun, [00:44:00] you know, work hard, play hard. I just worked hard. That's it.
00:44:06Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Yeah. This one, uh, definitely hits hard for, for me. I, I'm a notorious workaholic. [00:44:15] I, I, yeah, I, for whatever reason, I mean, I, it's this weird, like, sadistic pleasure that I find and just working and working and working and, um, as I've, as I've gotten older, I've definitely tried to, Keep myself off of that path.
00:44:30 and, you know, I've experienced very similar to what you have. I mean, I, mm-hmm. I hit a wall at 500 miles an hour and it was, it was tough. And marriage didn't survive. Sold the business fortunately. But burnout's [00:44:45] burnout is really tough. And yeah, I feel like I'm on the verge of it again, and I'm, and I'm, I'm like trying to look, look back and, and, and figure out how to, you know, how to not have it happen again.
00:45:00 ultimately enjoy what you do and you are a workaholic and that work is, is fulfilling to you, like, it's, it's really hard to look at that objectively and say, listen, this is not a, you know, a healthy place to be and I need to step away from it, or I need to go do something else.
00:45:14Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: And [00:45:15] that's a tough place to be. I think for me it was, um, I mean, I loved what I did and, and everything else, but there was something else underneath it was, you know, just. You always have to look back to our early beginnings, but my dad was a workaholic and that's how you [00:45:30] showed love for your family.
00:45:45 we are a workaholics. You know, some people are alcoholics, you know, and I was neurotic too.
00:46:00 and it, I had to come to grips with that too. So, yeah, I think. Working too hard. Burnout is us, the end result of something deeper, something more profound, because there's something that doesn't, we know the wall's coming and we know we're picking up [00:46:15] speed, but some way we say, I don't know.
00:46:20Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: yeah. If you go, if you go fast enough, you'll go through it
00:46:25Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: or you just hoping you won't hit the wall sometime. Yeah. You just,
00:46:29Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: I, I think that's the [00:46:30] mentality everybody takes. Okay. I see that wall coming. I'm just, I'm just gonna speed up and hope I just break right through it and I'll be fine.
00:46:45 us that that's how we have to provide and that's what, you know, like this. Subconscious measure of success we have is how hard we work and how much we work.
00:47:00 family, you're lazy or, or whatever it is. And it's hard to overcome that mental block too. And that's something that I definitely, you know, struggle with. And, and, and still too, to this day, I mean, I'm, I'm getting better at forcing myself to take days off.
00:47:15 I, you know, I've got a stack of signs, I've got a design, and I, I just, I, I physically, like you said, you couldn't pick up your tools. Like sometimes I can't touch that mouse. Yeah, yeah. And I just have to get up and, you know, and, and walk away. And it's the worst feeling in the world sometimes It
00:47:27Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: is.
00:47:30 Yeah. It's weird.
00:47:32Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: You just, Yeah, it's like magnetically, like repelling your hand and it, and it's, and then it's hard not to fall down like this hole of kind of beating yourself over it, you know? And, and it's a vicious cycle.
00:47:42Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: I can touch the mouse, Mike. I just can't, [00:47:45] like, I just stare at the screen.
00:47:54Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: working,
00:47:56Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I know. I, I'm a, a bagpiper and I [00:48:00] knew this, uh, this guy he played since he was a kid and he was, you know, grade one piper and he was always go practicing, practicing until one day he said, my hands wouldn't, fingers wouldn't move.
00:48:15 You know, it's, it's like, you know, it's just something says no. So, and especially when we're younger and think full of everything and. And then we just keep going, you know? And I burnt out [00:48:30] small burns along the way, but once the big one happened, I, I never, I don't think I ever came back fully.
00:48:44Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: do you think [00:48:45] that you, do you think that something like broke in you when you hit that wall and, and it just hasn't, can't repair it? Or do you think that something changed in your priorities or your outlook changed in, in you?
00:49:00 yeah, just approach
00:49:00Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: it differently now. Bit of both, I think, you know. Yeah. I find, you know, there was a song by Blue Rodeo. It's like, you know, he is basically, it blew apart and then some of the pieces went put, were put back [00:49:15] together, but they were wrong with some of them missing, you know? Yeah. And it's a weird psychological, um, It's a powerful thing.
00:49:30 you know, that I couldn't touch my tools. I, I'd open my tool, but I really feel nauseous. I get such a strong thing. Yeah. And I just kept pushing. And I think it's just, I dunno if something got broken, I think it just, [00:49:45] I think, um, you know, if you pull something out, you know, and it, it just won't grow back anymore.
00:50:00 came back. It never regenerated. So I feel like there's a piece missing. I don't have the same push or drive, but the love of the craft, but I don't have the, the longevity in there.
00:50:15 just don't, I don't wanna do that anymore.
00:50:18Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, I think for me it was like the patience was the, the part that didn't come back. Like the, the, the willingness to like sit down at every minute detail because that was, [00:50:30] yeah, I used to think that was part of why the work was great is like obsessing over every little detail.
00:50:37Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I hear you. You know, that's why I couldn't sign craft anymore. Couldn't make, cuz I'd spent hours, you know, everything was so crafted to such [00:50:45] a fine touch and I just didn't have that in me anymore. Yeah, it's a strange, it's a strange phenomenon. It's, um, it was gonna some it's gonna say something. I forget what it was.
00:50:56Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: funny you, you're talking about, you know, I was, I've been thinking just about my [00:51:00] career here, but Brian, I mean, you know, I'm in the middle of this ridiculous house renovation too. And, um, Shane Shaney the backstory here during Covid, my wife and I got bored and we bought a fixture upper house and completely gutted it down to the studs and have.[00:51:15]
00:51:30 mean it, like, I, I handmade all the trim. I, I've handcrafted all these beams, hand laid, all this hardwood floor.
00:51:45 I hit a wall two years ago and like, I can barely, I can barely bring myself to even, like, vacuum the house now, let alone make it's, it's only half done.
00:51:56Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: do anything on it. I think it was so bad, Shane. I had to send him, [00:52:00] um, do you remember the, the show home improvement with, uh, Tim, the tool man, Taylor and his assistant Al? Yeah. I got on, uh, cameo, which is a service where you can like order videos from celebrities to your friends.
00:52:15 fun. I ordered a video from Al for Mike and his wife to give them a pep talk about renovating his
00:52:24Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: house. It was, it was the greatest thing too. And I, and I, I tell you what, like I really needed it. Like, it was, it was great to [00:52:30] hear from Al Borland in his flannel shirt that like, oh my gosh, you know, there was light at the end of the tunnel and you're gonna get there and remodeling is hard, but.
00:52:45 50 hours driving around trying to find just the right type of nail for my floor. You know, not even, you know, let alone actually, you know, driving all those nails in.
00:53:00 45 different color samples until we picked a color that we like and just obsessing over all these details. Yeah. And it just, you know, it, it drives you nuts. I think there's point in talking about that. I think there's something to that, you know, getting so [00:53:15] deep in the weeds and obsessing over things that nobody else would even notice, but you, that really leads down that path of, of burnout.
00:53:30 that that obsessive quality within them. And I think it's probably what makes them great.
00:53:34Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I, it would help me a lot, as I heard along the way was the illusion of perfection.
00:53:45 business, having your partner, having like a good partner. You know, that was part of my burnout too, is like I had someone that would just like sabotage and, you know, spend money and, you know, I wanted a break in a lot of ways.
00:54:00 I need a break, but so a partner's big, big deal and a good home life too. I mean, it's all connected. There's no separation. I think signing
00:54:09Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: that's a really good point. I mean, that's a, this is a difficult industry and it's an exhausting industry and one that takes a lot of [00:54:15] tolls on, on you and, and you know, having a spouse or you know, somebody at home that's supportive of you, or if they're actively in that business.
00:54:30 direction and constantly trying to undermine each other and, and that definitely, I mean, it's, it's really hard to do good work when you're, you know, fighting your own internal battles and demons like that.
00:54:41Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: It, it just, and it's not conducive to creative life, [00:54:45] a creative life. No, it's not. No,
00:54:46Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: it, it, it's not. And it, and it makes, I mean, come hell or high water, you. If you're a creative person, you're gonna live that life and that's what you've gotta pursue. And there's no, there's no way you can get off that path.
00:55:00 factory all day long and be satisfied. That's just not how it works. No. So creative person has to be, you know, pursuing a creative job and, and it's so easy to be derailed from that and everything, just that kind of emotional, you know, baggage makes [00:55:15] creativity the part of your brain that, that is creative.
00:55:20Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: a way. It is. It comes from, yeah, that good place. You know, I always think creativity is more of a, a, an allowing. So if there's other things, you know, clamping down on it or heavy [00:55:30] sitting heavy on it, it's just hard to do. And, and that was always in my amazement when I was still designing.
00:55:45 really not comes from me. All I do is facilitate. The process of coming through me and I've heard it.
00:56:00 it's just they get out of the way and they allow things to come through. So even when I was physically and emotionally and mentally exhausted, I still had these designs. I was just like, it was as if I was almost an observer as well.
00:56:15 takes the pressure off. But I think it's a good way to think of design cuz there's no pressure. It just set it up so things come through you and it's basically designing from in, in intuition.
00:56:28Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. This is the part that I really [00:56:30] wanted to talk about of like what your creative process looks like and just mm-hmm.
00:56:45 how would I have come up with this like, I could form no words as to like how something like that would come together, but I feel like it's a, like a series of steps and like mm-hmm.
00:57:00 what, what do you, like, what does your creative process look like? How would you describe it to everybody? Mm-hmm.
00:57:05Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: So, going into understanding that it comes through me. So, you know, when I gave my workshops, I said it's almost like, or opening a portal and letting [00:57:15] things come through because I, it might be a little deep for sign making, but it's true for everything I believe.
00:57:30 We're all part of the same thing. We're ourselves are, are arranged as the golden means. So there's a, that's why. When we see certain faces or see certain buildings or something, it's all within that golden means.
00:57:45 connection there. And then the book, uh, the old way of seeing talks about that we're innately all good designers. We're innate. Yeah. Put it right here, folks. That's it. And so
00:57:54Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: we'll drop it in the show
00:57:55Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: notes for sure. Yeah. And it's like, great book. I think everyone should read it [00:58:00] because it changes, can change our whole society.
00:58:15 designer to get there, I need to, when I design something, it's never about, I, I like this, or I think it should have that there's, I'm, I'm out of the picture.
00:58:30 want. It's your story. But how it's gonna come about is. It's going to come forth. It will, it will find me and it will find the solutions for you. So, so yeah, I just, again, that cri writing criteria, getting in, in the [00:58:45] feel of it, repeating the criteria.
00:59:00 do. If that's not happening, I'll go and for instance, I dunno if what signs you're familiar with, there's a bank cafe has a B on it.
00:59:09Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. That's one that sticks out in my mind.
00:59:11Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Mm-hmm. So I think. Okay. Didn't want [00:59:15] the bank. It was a former bank. So what started was, I gather everything else, what they wanted to achieve, who they wanted as a client who was coming into town, the history of the town. And she wanted to look, feel as if it was always established, always been there.
00:59:30 I'm thinking, okay, the pioneers of the time, I did a little research. What they did was plant apple trees and created bee colonies cuz the bees were the health of the farm and health of the natural environment. So I thought, oh, and then I looked in the [00:59:45] bees, and bees were community, which lined up with the bank, cafes and wellbeing and everything else.
01:00:00 criteria, I'm scribbling I, my hands scribbling. I don't. I don't, I don't look at other signs. I don't look at anything. I just, it's all about the topic and I'm thinking, so now, so inside it has, it's a really tall, [01:00:15] it's classic bank building.
01:00:30 honeycomb. Well, in the honeycomb there's these little edges, you know, the sides.
01:00:45 getting the feel of it. And so I'm looking back at the storyline, getting the feel. So now I have in the top cap was the cornice and the up, you know, up lines.
01:01:00 then how they would've built the molding. And then the teardrop is basically honey that has a drip, you know, just a, a drop of honey. And it has a nice feel to it. If you look at that shape. It exists so many places [01:01:15] in nature and we identify with that, you know, it's very, uh, and two, the shape holds, the bee like cradles it as well.
01:01:30 of, of design elements. You know, the border all are naturally proportion and they're all related to each other. So every aspect of that sign is support of that B. And there's nothing on that sign that is just put on there cuz it's pretty, [01:01:45] or I've seen it down there.
01:02:00 have so strong geometric shapes, contrast to the organic shape. It's a really nice, it's like you always look for contrast, whether it's texture, color, dark and light, and then colors.
01:02:15 colors, you know, some recede, some proceed. So, and then the idea of just a bit of gold and a, so it's decade, so they're saying was gourmet fruit or. Extraordinary food with a gourmet twist. So it was, [01:02:30]
01:02:30Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: yeah, I, I can remember seeing that one. And it's like, that's the exact, that's how I would describe it.
01:02:38Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: yeah. So, so the process is, I wasn't, I never thought, how am I gonna design this or what should I do? Or I start looking at other, don't [01:02:45] look at anything else. And actually my, my inspiration, I look at glass blowers. I go to the museum, I look there at painters. You know, I hear like everything.
01:02:59Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: a good tip. [01:03:00] Yeah. Like, hey, because that's usually like the first place that people started. And I can remember back when I was like throwing out 20 designs a week. It was like, Hey, hey. That's the first thing I would do is like, okay, like I gotta get pretty good idea.
01:03:15 and see like what everybody else has put together for Yeah. This type of business or something, you
01:03:20Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: know? And it's a, and it's an easy common mistake. And I did that for eight years until I met my mentor and he said, he says no. And it's, I call it top down stuff. He's tried to [01:03:30] make it work and, and it doesn't work because it's not authentic.
01:03:45 a, from the ground up, it's more of a felt thing. And it makes sense because, you know, when I. So a client comes to me and, and so after I've designed it, I sit down and I reiterate their business and the criteria I've [01:04:00] made, and they, they agreed to that.
01:04:15 and then it's okay. Some say, okay, what happens? I think with a lot of sign companies, the client goes home and they ask their janitor or their friends or their husband or their wife, whether they think of the design [01:04:30] and they'll put it in the 2 cents.
01:04:45 essentially, you wanna seduce them. I, I had a lot of clients where they say, I had people come into my store and they didn't, they said I was, I saw you sign and I had to come in here.
01:05:00 there's a, there's an intuitive natural elements that go into it, you know? Um, I think, and then in the book you'll read that. And I think that's, there's a lot of power to that. You know, especially, we don't see it a lot.
01:05:15 square buildings and really bad architecture, and we're surrounded by, you know, disconnected food, you know, fast food, disconnected architecture, you know, bigger, cheaper, faster. Like how, yeah. Yes. And our society is like, [01:05:30] we're just. It's like eating fat, junk food. You just want more and more and more and the more you eat, the more you fast you want to go.
01:05:45 true beings as part of nature. That's why we all love going in nature, not just cuz there's birds tweeting and it's fresh airs because we look around and we see ourselves in nature proportionately and [01:06:00] and structurally.
01:06:15 have. Lots of people come through and the right people come through through their doors. And the thing is, you know, typical too, a lot of them have a business and they spend all this money inside.
01:06:30 in the door. Not just people, but the right clientele. So it's a whole art and science to that and whole psychology to it as well.
01:06:41Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: I just, I look at Mike and like, I, I dunno if [01:06:45] you, you just like put him in like a design coma or
01:06:50Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Mike's at a trance right now.
01:06:54Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I know. I used to my workshops, I'd have a whole day of that and just take I, what I do, put my [01:07:00] designs up and I deconstruct, deconstruct. And it's like worlds within worlds within worlds.
01:07:15 Created that I've done. They see, they feel it, but they just don't know what it is they say it's so simple, but they're say so much. I think it's along those lines. I think we're all great designers.
01:07:30 you know, and it's easy to do in our world, you know, it's just fast, cheap, and, and lots of it.
01:07:38Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. So if you were to, oh, Mike, I'm sorry, I interrupted you. I, I heard you take a breath. You're about to launch into it. [01:07:45] Oh,
01:07:46Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: no, no, you're fine man. Go ahead.
01:07:48Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Okay. All right. I was gonna say, SHA like if you had to give like the average sign shop that is doing like the standard stuff out there, like one or two bits [01:08:00] of advice right now, what would you tell them?
01:08:05Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: You know, this isn't gonna, doesn't happen overnight, and I. You know, you have to carry on with business and commerce. I think if there's something creative in you [01:08:15] that you want to express, or you're feeling frustrated with your work, frustrated with your clients, or, or frustrated with not getting the jobs you want, or competing on price, hold on, then start injecting that.
01:08:30 to the fore, uh, and go learn about design. You know, don't look at other science, don't look at other things. If you are looking at other things, don't look at science, but look at things you see. Just could be anything. Architecture [01:08:45] or what, what someone's dress, you know how they dress.
01:09:00 and even just the fundamentals of design and color theory and all the rest, and just start injecting it into your work.
01:09:15 we, this is why you should come to us instead of someone else. Does anyone get assigned anywhere? You know, and, and mediocre signs are everywhere and it's, it's not a judgment call, it's just the fact that they're not designed well.[01:09:30]
01:09:45 is and, and stop looking at other people's signs. You can look at them and say, that's, that's wonderful, but that's someone else's solution for a very specific problem.
01:10:00 it about that you like? I mean, take away the goal, take away all the, the glitz and, and the bells and whistles, and it should stand as black and white image without any color, without anything like that. And I, I, that's another thing with design too.
01:10:15 if, and then all the three dimension does is enhance those features. It just tunes that design a little more. So, yeah, just, and you know what? Get away from the computer. Start, [01:10:30] start sketching. Start. You know, we have, I heard a scientist say once that we have ancestral memory in our hand.
01:10:45 that is cool and what's going on? So you follow it. So yeah, get out, start sketching, start using your hands and look at type, like typography too is misunderstood. I only use about three or four typefaces and type has a, uh, an [01:11:00] expression and has, uh, expression, uh, in so many ways.
01:11:15 yourselves. Mike a makes better designer, just
01:11:17Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: a handful of typeface. I asked Mike for a recommendation the other day. He gave me like, he's like 12.
01:11:30 because I just wanted one. Like that's,
01:11:32Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: I never give my clients choice either. I never, I don't do three designs. I do one design. Yeah, it's so true. You know, I, you know, my, when I was first getting mentored, he said, it's so simple.
01:11:45 have to think of as, it's either circles, rectangles, or triangles or circle squares and triangles. That was it. Everything in the world is of those things. So it's, I always say it's a, you know, English is [01:12:00] my second language and visual language is my first. And I think, you know, as people as human race, we have tens of thousands of years of development in that area.
01:12:15 Before we can articulate it, but if we can understand that somewhat, we can communicate through signs or any, any other visual medium. I think it's all about connection. Bottom line. We all wanna connect, you know, whether it's doing [01:12:30] more, doing more drugs or working or, or searching for that, you know, the next product that you're gonna throw in the garbage.
01:12:45 you know, I always think it was, um, people have always liked my signs, but I think it's not, not because they're signs because of this other, they just connect with it on a, on a deeper level. Yeah, yeah. That, that we don't normally do in, in everyday life.
01:13:00 you know, there is, there is a place in the sign industry for that. If anything, there's a big opening for that because everybody's going this way and you can go do the other thing. And even if it's just [01:13:15] really good design, understand becoming the sign experts, the design experts, no, it's just in the way of, you know, this is how I think your sign should look.
01:13:27Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Very powerful. Mike, what were, [01:13:30] did you remember what you were gonna say? No.
01:13:32Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: No. This is either
01:13:35Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: very encouraging or very discouraging.
01:13:39Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: No, my, my brain is, is running a million miles an hour. I'm, I'm thinking of, there's a lot of parallels with what Shane is saying to [01:13:45] what Dan Antonelli said when we had him on, you know, he, he, he talked a lot about psychology of, of branding and marketing and, and, you know, the thought processes and psychology behind consumer buying patterns and everything like that.
01:14:00 what attracts a person to, to something. So I'm thinking a lot about, about that and I, I, I love Shanes. Suggestion to, you know, if you're looking for inspiration, don't look at signs. I think that's something that [01:14:15] on a daily basis, I'm on Google images, like I, because I after a while, like, how many monument signs can you design for?
01:14:30 that the rules of good design apply to anything that is designed, whether it's a sign or whether it's a, you know, a mouse or car or, or anything.
01:14:45 looking at other well-designed objects or things that have nothing to do with signage or typography or advertising or anything.
01:14:51Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Uh, is, is interesting when you're talking to our, remember Toyota, that they design a, a lot of their.
01:15:00 Mm-hmm. So their idea is that human body kinetics create lines that are within the golden mean. So, and everything they do is a lot of hands-on. And what happens, you sit in a Toyota or you look at a Toyota, you just feel good. And [01:15:15] when you sit, I've heard people said, I love my to, it just sin.
01:15:30 become, we are still the same. We still get lit up by the same things we did thousands of years ago. Right. Jillian thing.
01:15:41Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's interesting when you describe it that way. [01:15:45] Let's transition to the future, Shane. Mm-hmm. What's, what's the future for you and for your business? Like, what is, what is the, the future?
01:15:54Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Well, I think, you know, You know, where I am, uh, in my life and my career. [01:16:00] I would love to, I always, in my workshops too, I'm not just doing two more, but in the workshops I said like, I'm just wanna hand off what I was given.
01:16:15 instead of tell 'em what door to open. So I just wanna pass on the knowledge that was given to me because it is such a simple concept, but is so overlooked and missed in today's society. And I think it'll just make the world a better place [01:16:30] and, and make your business more run better, more satisfying, and, Better clients, but so many signs I see everywhere, it's just so, there's such disconnection around there.
01:16:45 forward, whether it's someone suggested Zoom, cuz it's, it's expensive to come, you know, to get on a flight to pay for the workshop and, and the rest of it. But perhaps a book, uh, someone mentioned, you know, book with all of the design philosophy, all the processes, all the pictures [01:17:00] deconstructed.
01:17:15 I always design signs and consult that way. Um, but my focus now is to go into hand carving fully.
01:17:30 and it's the same approach as I did with signs, but now I'm. It can go and create art. It's more art than Yeah. Than just functional. Yeah.
01:17:40Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: And that carving, that's, they've been staring at me the whole time. We've doing the podcast behind [01:17:45] me, right, yeah.
01:18:00 same way there.
01:18:01Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: It's, it's so interesting you said that, you know, I feel I've learned so much about life through my work, and not just through the work, but striving to, as you say, you know, to keep getting better, to, I want to do [01:18:15] more and better.
01:18:30 I thought I knew what I was doing.
01:18:45 down to simple steps. And so by the time you finished, you arrived. But I could never look at that.
01:19:00 looks complex, but it's complex cuz there's many layers, but I can only do one layer at a time. So there's a, I think a lot of people could carve. I think, uh, I used to have a little bit of carving classes and I say, we all know an apple, so we'll carve an apple [01:19:15] first.
01:19:20Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: of work, especially when you can turn, turn your head off
01:19:24Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: always away, right? Yeah, yeah. I know. Yeah. [01:19:30]
01:19:30Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: So, uh, this is a, like a, a tougher question. What do you wanna be remembered for? That is a good
01:19:37Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: question. Um, I have a hard time with that question.
01:19:45 think, cause I thought my work was never about me at all. And I'm always uncomfortable when people say, you have lots of talent or love, you know, or I'm the master of this. It's like, no, I'm not. I'm just found a way to [01:20:00] communicate to something bigger than myself.
01:20:15 would be that I honored the craft. I was steadfast in my honoring of the craft and didn't compromise in any way with that, you know? I
01:20:25Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: love that. Yeah. It, it, it, it definitely comes through in your work.
01:20:30 So,
01:20:32Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: yeah. Thanks Mike. Are you just, I think I've disturbed. I see it. He's, he's like a little, like, I dunno, anything. I dunno.
01:20:43Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Shane broke me.[01:20:45]
01:20:48Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: That's step one though, right? Oh yeah.
01:20:50Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Mission accomplished. Yeah. You can't fix
01:20:53Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: anything that's not broken, right? No, I, I, I, I have, I have his [01:21:00] Instagram and stuff open over here on my other screen, so I'm kind of scrolling through it as he is talking and looking at all these signs and stuff and just, it's been, it's been a little while since I look at some of your work and, and it's just, you know, part of it makes me just wanna like, throw my hands and quit, you know?
01:21:15 Screw it. Uh, your, your, your walk through life is really interesting and, and really resonates with me. It sounds like we've kind of had some, some similar experiences with, with, with [01:21:30] hitting that wall and, and, and burnout. So I, I'm just, I'm really, I apologize. I don't mean to be quite so, so quiet.
01:21:45 it's, it's very pertinent to, you know, kind of some of the things that I'm dealing with right now. Burnout work and, and thinking about the future. And yeah, for that matter, what do I wanna be remembered for?
01:21:58Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. I think that's [01:22:00] my biggest fear myself. Mm-hmm. Um, especially to my kids of like, I, I don't want to be remembered as that to my kids. Like, uh, hey, like, dad was working, I, this big thing happened and dad wasn't [01:22:15] here.
01:22:16Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: That's big. Oh my God, that's huge.
01:22:30 attention and, and talk with them. But I didn't go on camping trips. I didn't go hardly anywhere with them cuz I was working all the time with such great regret.
01:22:45 smell of wood, they think of those fond memories. So as, hopefully I got quality time in there. But yeah, life. So life's tough when you have regret. Regret's a tough one cause you can't do anything about that. But guys are still in the [01:23:00] position.
01:23:15 are you familiar with Dirk? He's in Australia. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they came, took my workshop, his, and through the workshop he had the same expression as Mike, actually, more so his eyes on him, he [01:23:30] looked so tired, he just like, like exasperated and beleaguered.
01:23:45 entirely different and differently. And it just, he work in a matter of few months to switched right over completely into a whole other level of design and did doing his own thing.
01:24:00 pretty cool. So, yeah, it's, it, it is, it's like learning a new golf swing. It's a brute at first, but after a while it's so, so simple in. And it's application.
01:24:12Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: And, um, Shane, tell us about the [01:24:15] workshops real quick. Mm-hmm. I know we've mm-hmm. We've, you know, hinted around at them a little bit, but, um, just give us the Yeah.
01:24:23Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Well, I think, you know, I, I call it, it's, it's just a rethink on design and it's pretty much what we've talked about, [01:24:30] and it's just a whole shift. It's a, a full weekend. People have taken it before they, you know, it's game changer. Danowski took it and he uses a lot of it in his, his business.
01:24:45 moment for a lot of people, and it's changed the way they, they do business and, and, and design. Uh, it's three day workshop starts Friday and goes till, uh, Sunday afternoon. The, um, a lot of [01:25:00] it's in class de uh, dissecting or deconstructing design and selling signs and.
01:25:15 design consultation on one, uh, project for me. Good for a year. The first one is in, is this weekend, and the second one is July 14th to 16th. [01:25:30] And, um, I have, if you know, uh, Roger Cox, he's coming, he had a host of signs, um, yeah.
01:25:38Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Gary Johnson. His signs are unbelievable too. Yeah, that's, that's another one that's worth looking up if you guys have never seen it.
01:25:43Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Yeah. And, uh, [01:25:45] Noel, Noel, ham. Ham, she does sign signs in Chatham. She's been sign crafted quite a bit. Yeah.
01:25:55Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: That name sounds familiar. I've heard it. Yeah.
01:25:58Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Sign it. Yeah.
01:26:00 Caught. I'm sorry. Sorry, Noel. I forget your last name. Uh,
01:26:03Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: that's okay. Yeah. We'll, we'll try to include all these in the show
01:26:06Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: notes for sure. Yeah. And Gary Johnson of Great American Sign Company, so he's coming and, and a few others have expressed interest. So [01:26:15] it's interesting though. I thought I'd get more, but you know, it could be signs of the times.
01:26:30 change how you do business. And, and a lot of people think, I can't just be on me. That that's not, not the way at all. I mean, if you saw my work before, It was, it was mediocre at, at best it was.
01:26:45 um, I keep it around. It's just like, well,
01:26:48Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: yeah, yeah, sometimes you gotta keep yourself humble. Certainly Uhhuh.
01:26:53Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: It's just like, you know, it's like playing in the wrong ballpark. It's all by myself thinking I'm doing a great job until I go over to [01:27:00] the other ones. Oh, this is how you play baseball. There you go.
01:27:04Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: That's so cool. Well, Shane, uh, can't thank you enough for coming on, man. This has been such an interesting conversation. Definitely one of my favorite episodes that we've recorded so far. Uh, just [01:27:15] we hit on so many different things and it's. Uh, I'm kind of like Mike in some aspects, but I, I could still move my mouth and words come out, so we're good.
01:27:25Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Yeah. I, Shane, I, I apologize advance. It's, I feel like I'm gonna like, [01:27:30] no, like, in like two days you're gonna get an email from me with like 8,000 questions and thoughts and like, as this stuff just like works its way through my brain and all it, you know, hits me Exactly once I'm like, oh, I should've asked him this.
01:27:45 so I apologize. Cause I'm gonna overwhelm you with questions
01:27:47Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: pretty soon. That's why, you know, that's why I was telling my clients if I saw that same look, I think just go home and let it absorb in, come back. Call, man, what a marinate. You let him marinate. Yeah. Yeah. But I, yeah, I've enjoyed this a lot.
01:28:00 kitchen table with you guys. The only thing missing is a beer at hand. So it's, I've enjoyed it a lot. It's been great. It's great to talk to sign, sign people as well. I don't, we'll
01:28:09Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: have to invite Shane to our next happy hour, uh, podcast episode. Yeah.
01:28:12Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. That last one was a [01:28:15] little rowdy.
01:28:17Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: Since you had alcohol. Anything. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:28:23Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Um, I'm, I'm definitely more, more verbose when I had a bottle of that Costco Chardonnay.
01:28:29Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: There you [01:28:30] go. Yeah. That's all it takes to get my Matt or Mike in the flow. I can't even say his name.
01:28:34Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: Yeah. Shane, really, really awesome. Um, talking to you. I'm actually gonna, um, look up your, Design versus here in a minute and, [01:28:45] uh, maybe see if we can come out there to the July one, cuz it I'd love to participate in that.
01:28:50Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: for sure. And I think that one will be, you know what, I've, it's just gonna be such a great exchange of good sign people, you know, Roger and, and [01:29:00] Noella and Gary. And, and if you guys came, I think it would be a really, uh, memorable, uh, event, you know, a small group. Yeah,
01:29:07Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: I, I'd love to, I I'd love to. I I've been wanting to get out to, you know, I did, I did j Cook's Science [01:29:15] School years ago, like 25 years ago or something like that.
01:29:30 a lot, so, um mm-hmm. I'm hoping I, I get to meet you in person here in the next
01:29:34Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: couple months.
01:29:42Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: area. I've been up in that area before. It is, it is lovely. [01:29:45] Especially in July and not the middle of winter. Yeah,
01:29:48Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: that's such right. That's got skis strapped to your feet.
01:29:54Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: Beautiful. All right, Shane, thanks again. Yeah,
01:29:57Shane Durnford: #72b372;">Shane Durnford: thanks. Pleasure, man. Yeah, awesome, Shane. Uh, let's [01:30:00] keep in touch too. I'd like that. But hopefully you'll see, uh, both of you, one of you at the, uh, workshop in July. That'd be amazing. Yeah,
01:30:08Michael Riley: #6600cc;">Michael Riley: I'm gonna try to come. I'd love to be there. Super person. So. All right.
01:30:15 you. All right, thanks.
01:30:18Bryant Gillespie: #de4a1d;">Bryant Gillespie: If
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