Happy Hour with Jeff Sherman / Better Sign Shop

00:00:00 Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit. Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, workflow, [00:00:15] growth, and more. You are listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts, Peter Krones, Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.[00:00:30]

00:00:45 a lot about outsourcing on the podcast and the importance of having. Good partners and GCI Digital Imaging is a good partner to have owner TJ bak and his team focus on providing killer customer service just the way grandmother [00:01:00] used to make it.

00:01:15 banners, wraps, and other printed graphics that your customers throw at you, check out GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com.

00:01:30 Shop podcast. Uh, this one is a special episode. We have Jeff the Viking. Sherm Minator back for round two. Uh, it is late in the [00:01:45] evening for us on the East coast. Um, probably the latest podcast we've ever recorded. So no holds barred here. All bets are off.

00:02:00

00:02:15 as always, Michael, the sign, sign Samurai. Hello everybody. Oh, what else did we have? Wait, wait, wait, wait. I've got some names. What do we have?

00:02:30 Uh, Carrie sent us some names. Did I, did I run through these with you? Mm-hmm. No, I don't think you did. Okay. All right. Oh, yeah. Let's, yeah. Yeah, she did. She did. That's a good way to start these. I like these. Let's, let's introduce 'em to 'em. Let's go. [00:02:45] All right. All right. All right. I, I don't think I sent these to you, Mike.

00:03:00 Mike, the sign Swamy.

00:03:15 Mike in there?

00:03:30 Hundred percent. Oh God. Red, red backwards. Baseball cap shirtless. Okay. With a rag in his back pocket. Yeah. Oh boy.

00:03:45 Yeah, me too. Hopefully my kids aren't listening in. All right. Number three, the Art Adonis,

00:04:00

00:04:15 Mike, the design dragon. And then, and then in parenthesis she had, he's on fire.

00:04:30 to meet this person. That, that one for sure. This is Carrie Brock. The last episode that just aired. Carrie, you're amazing. She, she's famous. All right. Uh, and the last one is the Corll [00:04:45] King, which has some, has some truth to it. Got a ring to it, but I, I'm still, I'm fond of magic. Mike, how about we just do this, right.

00:05:00 is. Put, I'll take it. Boom. Put them together. Yes. Magic Mike. The Carll King. I mean that Peter, for the win. That is the name. There you go. As much as I like the signed shawa, that was the signed whatever the heck that was, [00:05:15] that one's hard.

00:05:30 been, when did we do the last step podcast episode? Feels like forever ago. Uh, November, October, November.

00:05:45 October. So, yeah, uh, I landed a gig with, uh, sunset Signs and Anaheim. Another smaller shop about the same size and staff and what have you. But, uh, we're pushing [00:06:00] probably about six mil, six seven mil in revenue right now, a year.

00:06:15 banner company to being a, a, you know, full-fledged architectural sign shop. So there's a whole bunch of growing pains going on with that. And I am their first and only project manager as I sit here right now.

00:06:30 me in was cuz of my background in building teams and departments and stuff. So I'm actually, uh, I have my first new hire starting on Monday, and theoretically I could have another hire start as early as Friday of this week. [00:06:45] Um, uh, building that department already when, when I got hired on, the thought was I'd be doing this in like August or September, but, uh, they had the biggest quarter they've had since I came on board.

00:07:00 their sales reps double as project managers are numbered and, uh, and we're transitioning full, full-fledged over the bay. Other model. That's some insane revenue to not have any project managers at all. I can't even imagine that I was right there with you.

00:07:15 Mike. I'm to myself, 6 million a heat. Yeah. Project manager. They were a vinyl shop five years ago and they migrated electrical signs. I got so many questions. Let me know when I, yeah, I mean, so I [00:07:30] will say, I mean, having only been there since January, I can give you what I can give you.

00:07:45 potential there as an interesting story. It definitely seems like it, it's got some meat to it. Yeah. Well, for you guys. Well, we've got a lot of listeners that would like to make that jump.

00:08:00 questions. Sure. I, I, yeah, I can regarding a bunch of things, so. Sure. Uh, I'm gonna kick us, I'm kick us off with a, with the question that's been on my mind ever since this guest was on our, on our show.

00:08:15 love it. What would you like me to call him this? The Viking. The Viking. The Viking on. All right. I No, you're making, you're making with I'm not, I'm not, you're not. You, you, you can't speak for me. I was speak, referring to [00:08:30] another guest. Ah, go. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. I had, I had this on my mind.

00:08:45 full-time trainer on her staff. Oh, wow. Okay. Now, Jeff, yeah. You, you're, you're an astute individual that's built teams before. I would love to hear your [00:09:00] opinion on this, cuz this was groundbreaking for me. Hmm. What are your thoughts around hiring an individual?

00:09:15 practices and policies for each department and train and build people up. And that's the person that's on set. There's no, it's not, their not, there's no customer interaction, right? Mm-hmm. It, their job is to make sure that [00:09:30] designers know how to design production.

00:09:45 input, and input them into a business that does, I don't know, I don't remember exactly what you said, but let's just say north of 10 million.

00:10:00 you know, we talked a little bit about that actually. We talked a lot about it the last time I was on about, you know, turnover and, and how to keep and, and, and maintain employees and staff.

00:10:15 solely is something that could counteract that. I, I absolutely, I'm, I'm on board with the idea. Have you ever seen that before? Have you ever seen that in shock? Not, not, not in the sign industry. I mean, I, I know [00:10:30] you're, you're kind of, I mean, I, you're, you're kind of dipping into areas of what I would say, you know, a lot of your consultants tend to be where they'll, they'll dip in and do it, you know, that's their focus.

00:10:45 One of, one of the, one of the things that, that, that poses an issue, and I have seen this and experienced it firsthand in going the consultant approach is, Or as opposed to going to the co consultant approach, I should [00:11:00] say, is that okay, so you, you, you unearth these things in your investigation, your conversations with your trainees, and when you're, you're talking about building departments and processes and, and, and making them better.

00:11:15 that can be exhausting for the leadership o o of the company to try to keep the momentum going and keep their support in that and back it. And, and, you know, it's one thing to say you want change and you want to improve, but it's [00:11:30] another thing to constantly be approached with new ideas and new things that you have to digest and try to change.

00:11:45 more easy to maintain, I guess, for lack of a better way of putting it, um, than, than, than it being approached with it all the time. I could see having somebody full-time on your staff being.

00:12:00 emotional energy and, and, and what have you that people put into their business as being owners or, or even managers, you know, having to work with that. It could be, I could see that as being a, a, a double-edged sword from that perspective, but, but as far as like keeping your staff, the, the, [00:12:15] the new staff and building a team, I mean, trying to recruit into this industry has always been a nightmare, you know?

00:12:30 you know, even in southern California, there's, there's one trade school out here my, I'm aware of that even touches on signage as part of its curriculum, right? So where, where do you end up getting people, you either end up poaching from 'em, from other companies, [00:12:45] or you get people that got let go from somewhere else.

00:13:00 telling Bryant before you came on, I've, I've got people that are gonna be coming into my department in the next week, and my time available to do actual work on my projects is going to be massively [00:13:15] impacted by that for, you know, several weeks at, at bare minimum.

00:13:30 and devoting it to those people, or pulling the old favorite of Chuck 'em into the wolves and see how they fare and, you know, at, at the potential expense of those hires and, and, and the other projects [00:13:45] and jobs that they're gonna be touching later on too.

00:14:00 a different direction. Okay. Going way back to what you said earlier about going from a vinyl shop to a shop that's now, you know, getting into electrical signs.

00:14:15 right now, I would say they are mostly a vinyl shop, and they are looking to dabble in, get into this market because they want to swim in that, swim in that pond. They want to basically be [00:14:30] like every other side company mm-hmm.

00:14:45 Mike. Yep. Walking them through that. I mean, what would you say, I mean, we can, we could talk off for hours on this, but what would you say is the path to doing that?

00:15:00 from mm-hmm. Vinyl printing and plotting, laminating, you know, weeding, masking that in that environment to, I'm gonna get into like dimensional signage, I'm gonna get into channel letters, I'm gonna get into Fab [00:15:15] Light Fab, and then eventually get into Fab.

00:15:30 anybody else has an opinion, I I, I'd love to hear it as well. Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I'll, I'll, I'll kick it off.

00:15:45 You know, I, I, I, I'd look for, I'd look to the ex, I'd look to the experts, i'd, I'd look to the network that you've got, whatever it might be. Whether it's, uh, a plug you guys, if, whether it's this podcast, whether it's the, for, whether it's the forums that you've [00:16:00] got online where you're actually starting to build some sort of community where people are interacting, start asking questions there of other experts and, and people that have been through this and get some knowledge.

00:16:15 somebody who knows how to, how to build signs. Okay, great. That's one aspect of it, but then you've gotta have somebody who can design them too. And designing for electrical signs is quite a bit more complex than it is di [00:16:30] designing for, for stickers and, and banners and, and digital print and that sort of stuff.

00:16:45 it, it, it's a large portion of where things are, but. Designing a dimensional fabricated sign that requires certain fasteners, has to satisfy wind loads, has to pass through building and [00:17:00] engineering and all these sorts of things to, you know, before you can even put it on the building, is a whole other ball of wax than, than designing flat media.

00:17:15 lit channels. I think they were. And you know, we, we were talking a little bit about how, how to, how, how to attach lettering to a glass curtain building. You know, in the state of California, their requirements out here are a little bit different than they are up in, in, uh, [00:17:30] Oregon.

00:17:45 get the business off the ground if, if, if you take that approach with it. So, I mean, I guess if I were to, uh, map a pa a path for you, I think you need to find yourself, I think order of operations.

00:18:00 yourself a fabricator or not. No, I'm sorry, I, I misspoke. Find yourself a designer first, cuz that's a harder portion to to, to outsource. No offense meant Mike. Um, that's a, that's a, that's a harder portion to outsource. [00:18:15] Starting off, I'm trying to re I'm trying to save Mike from some, some more head headache conversations too with shops that, you know, are trying to sell into this market without the knowledge, you know, trying to design into that is very, very difficult.

00:18:30 But there, there are a lot more wholesale fabricators out on the market than there are wholesale designers. Knowledgeable ones. So find yourself a designer, whether that means you've gotta poach somebody from somewhere else or [00:18:45] whatever, but get yourself a, a assigned designer who, you know, understands how to put technical drawings together.

00:19:00 that can work on that. Send those off to start off sending those off to, to other fabricators. Get some feedback from those other shops as you, as you start sourcing that stuff.

00:19:15 fabricator. So you're talking, bringing people first. Mm-hmm. Bringing people first. Designer bring in, uh, some sort of fabricator, but you're not really bringing in any equipment yet. Not bringing, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't just, I mean, well, I mean, I [00:19:30] gue I guess there's an assumption of something that new would be needed at that, that point.

00:19:45 fabrication, even in a small sense mm-hmm. You need, you're essentially needing the two people that can, are capable of designing, I would necessarily say, mid to high grade types of signage.

00:20:00 capable of using their monos here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And using their hands and getting mm-hmm. Getting some, taking something from paper and bringing it to life. Right. And, and mm-hmm. This is, this is, we're we're aligned there. We're aligned there. But [00:20:15] here's the thing.

00:20:30 in the system where I'd like to fix. So that is, The fabricator's input into how something should be made.

00:20:45 for years, for years, my designer, whether it was someone I hired, myself, my business partner, whoever we were, all designers, would design for fabrication. Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh, the fabricator would then have [00:21:00] a different opinion on how this could be made based off of, like you mentioned, wind load.

00:21:15 Okay. Right. Unless they are, you know, uh, the corll, what do we call 'em again? The Corll guru Magic Mike. The Corll king? No, the Corll King. Okay. Mm-hmm. Unless you're the Corll king over here.

00:21:30 even even seasoned designers, are not aware of those laws and regulations and things of that nature. So, sure. A, a potential crack here would be, here's how we're gonna make it. It's being made and it's actually being made [00:21:45] wrong. Right? Mm-hmm. And it's cause it's one directional information.

00:22:00 fabricator and say, okay, this is what we gotta make. Can we have like a brainstorm session? Mm-hmm. How would we make this all right? Mm-hmm. As we all know, Probably more than a half a dozen ways to make any type of sun.

00:22:15 type of sun. So getting that input and saying, yeah, there's actually a more, maybe this way has more material. Maybe this way is less material, but more labor. What one, which one makes financial sense for us to go down that path? That's an [00:22:30] actually, so I would, I love what you said, that you gotta bring people in, but those two people have to talk.

00:22:45 to, this is how it's going to be made. Who's making sure it's getting made that way? Right? Yep. And that can come, that's, that shouldn't come from the designer.

00:23:00 like yourself, Jeff, like this is gonna be a key on Yeah, but project manager, you could, you, you, you, you've got me thinking further up the chain too. You know, I'm thinking more the build it yourself model there, you know, there's a, there's another very viable option, [00:23:15] obviously, you know, it's the chicken and egg thing.

00:23:30 or, and, or a knowledgeable salesperson who can, for a time, a time period serve as you know, that account manager, a dual role is your fir is your first player to coordinate things, you know, and, you know, [00:23:45] with the design team, You know, there's always that there, there's always that back and forth that, you know, and, and I think we talked about this or maybe Mike talked about it on one of the other podcasts, the, the, um, [00:24:00] you know, design for install is a, is a big thing too.

00:24:15 serviced and, you know, over time as well. Yeah. Which is something that a lot of people forget about.

00:24:30 those, those teams together. We get the, the, the, the stakeholders. We get somebody from production, we get somebody from install, we get the designer together and we talk about that project.

00:24:45 know, mouse to mouse pad, for lack of a better way of putting it for those initial designs, you know, everybody gets their opportunity to say, Hey, well, you know, you need to consider this, you need to consider this. Hey, but okay, now, you know, install suggests something and then the fabricator [00:25:00] goes, well, you know, I can't do that because of this.

00:25:15 ways to build anything. And one of the things that factors into why you choose those is not necessarily always cost.

00:25:30 had different fab practices and capabilities than the company I'm working for now. You know, I, I'm being told by my production team, we don't build channel letters with less than a one inch stroke on 'em because [00:25:45] of X, Y, and Z.

00:26:00 process change there to kind of help them develop those, those abilities and, and those ways of doing things.

00:26:15 need to have that team to, to make those, you know, to your point, to make those decisions for the company and, and kind of help mold what your, what your practices and processes are.

00:26:30 yes, please. Thought here. Mm. Yeah. I like this talk of equipment and fabric. Like, dude, I'm starting to sweat. I'm like, uh, don't, no. Yeah. Like, this is like a, it's like a serious commitment. Like you've got, like, this is what you, you're absolutely a hundred percent sure you want to do it.[00:26:45]

00:27:00 without really thinking about how you're gonna get the damn thing in the ground, right?

00:27:15 finding a good quality. Installer who's gonna show up on time with the professional looking crew, do a good job and not steal your customer, and not charge you through the nose for that installation is really, really difficult, [00:27:30] if not nearly impossible in some markets.

00:27:45 was, and not charge you through the nose. Um, you, you, you know, growth costs money, number one, and you, it, it's gonna be an expense to do it.

00:28:00 and try to go with the cheapest guy, cuz you're gonna get the cheapest guy and you're gonna have those situations where they're gonna steal clients from you. You're gonna look bad, you may. Pay a little bit more and that may limit your [00:28:15] sales potential. It may slow down your sales growth in that market segment, but that's probably a good thing in the long term cuz you're gonna learn more, you're gonna get better, valuable feedback.

00:28:30 designer and your, and your fabricators, you know, one of the reasons I see that approach working is if you're working with a vendor who is going to give you feedback on your designs or who has, maybe you find a vendor that you can [00:28:45] send the pretty picture layout to your concept and then they give you the actual technical drawings back to approve and review.

00:29:00 training and, and you're, you. That's the value add and the extra money that you're, you're paying to that vendor. Sorry, I I Yeah, totally. I cut you off there. I apologize.

00:29:15 always trying to, you know, we're always trying to earn the sale, and everybody's afraid of, you're al you're always balancing costs versus what you're selling it from, what you're mm-hmm.

00:29:30 truck bid for this channel letter installation, because you make a little, you know, you make a few more points on it than if you go with the high end sign company who's charging you twice as much, even though they're gonna do it Right.

00:29:45 about people that put. All their eggs into the fabrication basket and none into the installation basket because it's such a huge component. I mean, it's, it's half of the sign is the installation, right? It's not just a, it's not something you do at the end.

00:30:00 it's, it's a huge part of the, the entire project, if not the majority of it in some cases. So I, I think that shops should really put a lot of emphasis on learning how to install, sign themselves and, and hire a good [00:30:15] qualified installer. Pick up a good used bucket truck that's not gonna strain you on the highway.

00:30:30 from an installation standpoint and all that can then be collaborated with, uh, you know, the third party wholesale fabricator.

00:30:45 shops don't consider when they, when they want to dip their toe into this end of the pool. Mm-hmm. And, and then they're caught with their pants down, you know, when push comes to shove because they, they don't have a good installer they can lean on and, you know, the install can make or break in job.

00:31:00 think it's important that they put some, you know, some focus on that. It is kind of like a lot of the, the clients that we sell to, right? Like, hey, we're, uh, putting in a new restaurant downtown. And then like, uh, the, like the sign is like the like, oh hell, we're [00:31:15] opening it in two months. We don't have a sign.

00:31:30 good. You're gonna do basic rectangular cabinet signs, maybe wall mounted, maybe with a basic pole skirt.

00:31:45 design standpoint. It requires some, but not a ton. But the installation side of those, I mean, even a basic raceway mounted set of channel letters can, can absolutely ruin your day if there's a beam behind that wall that you didn't think about, didn't know that was there.

00:32:00 install it. So there's a lot to think about. You know, initially doing those types of signs, they're really easy to outsource to a, you know, a wholesaler without a whole lot of headache. And, and as Jeff said, any good wholesaler is gonna gonna work with you and give you feedback. A lot of 'em do give, [00:32:15] you know, will give you the shop drawings you need to even put together permit drawings.

00:32:30 you're, you know, what goes into making these signs and how they're installed.

00:32:45 expect installation to be a, that big of the project, and b, that that complex and difficult to manage, you know, using just, you know, vendors not doing it in house.

00:33:00 over a difference of opinion of how long the job should take to install, how often daily, I'm sure all the time there was, there was, there was, there was one time I threw an orange at him and hit and missed and hit and splattered on the wall.

00:33:15 background, uh, you know, the, you bring up a really good point and, and I know we want to get to the mail, the mailbox here, the mailbox here, but the, it is important to design [00:33:30] with installation in mind for, for many reasons, but the one that really just stands out to me is communicate with your team so that they know exactly what.

00:33:45 to say it simply like, you can easily design the way a sign should be installed to save hours out in the field. And I've been victim of just looking at a project saying, yeah, these letters should be, this should take four hours to put up on the wall.

00:34:00 it ends up being a two day job because he didn't know what was behind the wall. Or there may not even be anything behind the wall. I remember there was one time I had the lay plywood pine, like one, like three quarter inch pine behind in, you know, basically two [00:34:15] inches of foam. It was nothing else there.

00:34:30 for another company that knows what the hell that they're doing. Cause this company does not. There's no better way and faster way to lose an installer than sending them out on a job site blind not knowing what they're getting into.

00:34:45 and, and as you're, as you're saying that, and, and Pete, you know, it, it, it makes me so it, it makes me question the order of operations again. Cuz you know, you, you, let's say you get yourself a designer who knows what they're doing.

00:35:00 yourself a, a, uh, uh, an installer who knows what they're doing. Nothing frustrates an ops team more than garbage information being chucked into the system by somebody who doesn't know their butt from a hole in the wall for [00:35:15] shitty survey.

00:35:30 quick if you've got garbage inputs coming in there. Now wait a second. Hold on. Yeah, you'll hold on.

00:35:45 of Google Street View? Oh, dear God, no. Yeah. So, yeah, so, uh, you, you talked, you talk about, you talk about a, uh, an install going sideways.

00:36:00 quick. You think it's gonna take four hours? I flashed you a job where we sent guys out, this is probably, God, 10 or 15 years ago, we sent guys out with a set of channel letters for mm-hmm. An eyebrow level sign, you know? Right. Right between first floor and second floor [00:36:15] on a, on a high-rise office building thinking that they were gonna be in and out and they start drilling.

00:36:30 was 18 inches thick.

00:36:45 and, you know, all that kinda crap. Right? Oh, you mean, you mean to tell me that you've never been a part of a, of a story where the Google Street view is how the building looked maybe four months ago and then when you actually, Hey, uh, had one, uh, [00:37:00] three weeks ago, we, I found out we had done a submittal on a project that I am managing right now.

00:37:15 So we're doing a monument and the initial submittals, the rendering showing the monument in front of the building used a Google Street view image. And that wall sign was taken down two years ago.

00:37:30 back to us and said, you need to put on your plans the distance between the monument sign and the wall sign. And so I went to the job site to go survey it and sure enough, hey, there's no wall sign there. Yep. [00:37:45] Yep. I mean, listen, there are, there are a lot of people that use Google Street View, but the the point is, is get your ass off the chair, get your ass outside in your car and start taking some measurements.[00:38:00]

00:38:15 You're, you're, you're right though. It's, it's the, you know, the, the, uh, you talk about the learning curve and the bumps and the things you need to be aware of.

00:38:30 Your site conditions don't impact you nearly as badly with a vinyl install. There's a lot That's such a forgiving thing. Aluminum and acrylic are not, steel is not, You know, it, it, it [00:38:45] only bends or flexes so much.

00:39:00 the threads that I saw on the sign form the other day.

00:39:15 yeah, it's not hard. All right, so let's sum this up. If you're a shop and if you're a shop, small shop, four guys, five guys, whatever you wanna call yourself and you're a vinyl shop and you're getting into fabrication, there are steps to do.

00:39:30 starts with people. Mm-hmm. Keep it. You're gonna have a need to have what you called, uh, what, what, what? Rally meetings or, uh, what, what, what, what did you call 'em? Kickoff meetings. Something kickoff. Kick kickoff meetings, K kickoff meetings. You're gonna, [00:39:45] you're going, you're gonna need some kickoff meetings because communication is key.

00:40:00 There's a world of processes, a world of best practices, a world of in intricacies that you're going to get involved in.

00:40:15 if you're interested, get yourself a consultant. Get yourself a coach. Ask some forums, ask some people, uh, in the Facebook group, in the, in our Better Sign Shop group, uh, there's a plug. But yeah. Mm-hmm. I think that that tho that was really [00:40:30] good advice.

00:40:45 comes for every sign shop owner. At some point or another, that decision comes. Mm-hmm. There, uh, I had asked, um, I think it was Carrie, I asked when I said, you know, like, do you ever regret it?

00:41:00 you know, 6 million in vinyl alone, 2 million. Mm-hmm. In vinyl alone. Those are great margins. Less head. There you go. Bryant. Less headache. Right. Do you ever wish that you could just go back to simple things and you know the, [00:41:15] as much as life is simple, when you get into fab, the reason why you get into FB is cuz you hold the control.

00:41:30 solutions to your customers with confidence. Uh, you can be known for different things and get into different verticals, and that's the reason why most people would say no. I would, I, I think I would stay exactly where I am now.

00:41:45 me from here. Things were easier, but now we're more, uh, involved in every aspect of the industry. I was, I was gonna say, I would ask any one of these owners if they're having these thoughts, Number one, [00:42:00] what, why do you think you want to do it? And number two, I think, and more importantly, being in the sign industry, since we're such a broad category, what, what kind of thing do you really, ultimately wanna get into?

00:42:15 customers? You have a little more of their business. Do you wanna be that shop that can say, yeah, we can do a monument sign for you? Or are you looking to be, you know, somebody who does, you know, these huge high-end projects? What's, what's your end goal?

00:42:30 goal? You know, not just not to into it, to get into it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Assuming, assuming, assuming one of those two points are valid. Right? You don't just get into fabrication just because it's a monumental [00:42:45] expense. It's a, there's a lot more liability. All of your overhead is going up, your insurance goes up, your.

00:43:00 well. Mm-hmm. Let's not forget about that. Yeah, yeah. Your, your, the amount of square footage demands goes up. Everything. Yeah. Your, your shop space becomes more precious.

00:43:15 with answer. Oh, are we getting into the mailbox? Yeah, I like it. All right. So I love this way. Hey, Bryant, longtime listener. I, I feel like I need to do like Casey Caseum here or something.

00:43:30 First time calling, calling Little long distance dedication here. How about an episode on safety protocols and procedures? Do we want, do we wanna do a whole episode? I don't know. Maybe, uh, we had an [00:43:45] incident and learned a lot when lawyers that are involved. I'm not sure you could ever know enough.

00:44:00 former in, in my former life. So, I mean, I guess, you know, first things first, every company needs an injury, illness, and prevention plan. That's, that's first and foremost, basic safety 1 0 1 stuff that you, any, any, uh, any insurance [00:44:15] underwriters gonna wanna see for your, going back to your comment, Pete, uh, worker's comp, if, if you can show them that you've got an I I P P, guess what your worker's comp insurance rates are gonna go down.

00:44:30 is going to, uh, cost you something, but it'll have some potential savings to you in the long run as well. I guess the big thing, and, and you can go to any kind of seminars, there's all sorts of, uh, things that [00:44:45] happen out there, uh, on the reg. Although I guess since Covid, I don't know how, how frequent they are.

00:45:00 staff. The big thing is making sure that people participate and feel engaged by it. Cause the best program in the world that you write up and with all the good intentions of things that you want people to do as best practices in your office and your shop.

00:45:15 If, uh, the guys on the shop floor don't care, if they think it's a joke, then they're not gonna do it. And, uh, you've just wasted your time drafting a document that's going nowhere. So yeah, get people involved. Uh, you know, [00:45:30] do, do, when you've got an event, use it as a learning opp opportunity. Talk to the team about what happened.

00:45:45 what thing didn't happen and somebody's gonna point it out and the team will talk about it. Let you know, let your staff drive that as much as possible. Cuz they're the ones turning the wrench.

00:46:00 not. And, and, you know, keep them engaged in that process. You know, they, I'll, I'll give you a different perspective. I'll give you a different perspective. You're absolutely right. I love having a plan in place that will save you money on your worker's comp policy, like you [00:46:15] said.

00:46:30 happen, talk about it, discuss it, put it in your employee handbook.

00:46:45 stories. I had a female, I had a female, uh, vinyl production employee, very lovely lady named Lisa. And she essentially just dropped an [00:47:00] Exacto knife on her foot, you know, and these things roll off the table very easily and just dropped an in, stabbed her in the foot, you know, urgent care bandages.

00:47:15 what do you learn from that? Well, we're no longer allowing open-toed shoes in our final production area. Okay? You wanna be in the office, that's fine. But if you're in the back room and you're wearing sandals or th [00:47:30] uh, I don't know, whatever the heck, the, these things tongs.

00:47:45 handbook like this is, if you're, if you're gonna be in this area, this is what you're gonna do. So that's a discussion. And then I make everybody sign off on the new policy, and it goes in there, little file, and you're okay.

00:48:00 agreed upon, and that's to prevent it from happening again. But then there are times that you cannot prevent damage. Like it's, it's around you, especially if you're in the world of install. It's around you everywhere. [00:48:15] Gentleman named Mike used to work for me.

00:48:30 for those of us that know how to do work in malls, you know that you, you have to install these projects around mall hours, not allowed to do anything during mall hours. So it's before the mall opens or after the mall closes.

00:48:45 before the mall opens. So that's, uh, you know, five 6:00 AM install. And I sent Mike with another installer to a job you need. He, all that was needed [00:49:00] was, uh, what do you call them? Uh, a little giant la two little giant, two little giant ladders. And, you know, some hand tools, uh, uh, it wasn't really a big job.

00:49:15 I gave you a dollar value, I think the job was probably close to about four grand in total value. Three dimensional letters, pin mounted into a wall, like hang a pattern, very little installation work involved. If I could [00:49:30] describe a very easy job, this is, this would be it, but the mall just waxed the floor.

00:49:45 We throw our little giant o up on the ladder, and it's, uh, for those of us that are just listening to this, I'll describe it. Instead of it, instead of the ladder being positioned as a, as an a, you close the ladder [00:50:00] and lean it up.

00:50:15 ladder, the ladder slid out and he snapped his foot basically right off of his leg. Was no more than thr.

00:50:30 incident. This was as the simplest job. Ambulance comes, takes him away. He tells me he's gonna be at, they tell him, you know, he's got seven screws in his foot. This becomes a humongous worker's comp claim.[00:50:45]

00:51:00 business was protected and it ended up just going through the mall's insurance. But there are things that you cannot plan for.

00:51:15 engraved in my head. Like it's not something that anybody ever wants to wake up to. But things are gonna happen. Things are gonna happen in your shop, especially if you're in this industry. It, it's just bound to happen for you.

00:51:30 are whoever, uh, whoever this person is, that that asks this question. For, for, for, for those of you that are concerned about how to prepare yourself for disaster, you [00:51:45] can't, we've, we've had several guests on here that have had fires in their shop. You can't prepare for that. I mean, you could try, but once that happens to you, it's, it's just a learning moment.

00:52:00 are you gonna take from it and how can you move forward? That's a significant whatever it is. It's a significant punch in the face, punch in the jaw. But you have to get up and you gotta keep marching forward. I know a couple of [00:52:15] local business owners that did prepare for that, like, Like fire burning down their business.

00:52:30 uh, with a nice insurance policy before the fire. Was that, that that was a good, that, that was a good first question. I enjoyed that question. That was a, that was a little down memory for, but that, I got something I gotta throw on that though.

00:52:45 the, the training that I had there doing IPPs and what have you, they, they always talk about, so like there's, there's tiers of planning that you can do when you're talking about safety training and to safety programs. And the first thing is the, [00:53:00] the, the first goal is to eliminate the, the, uh, the hazard.

00:53:15 girl with the, with the Exacto blade, you know, Dr. Landing on her foot. All right, so if you go to tier one, the option is take the exacto blade out of the equation.

00:53:30 next level in and you go, okay, well what can we do to, to, to, because it seems like, you know, the solution of, of, uh, the shoes is one portion of it. Cuz you're, you're reducing the risk of the contact with the blade.

00:53:45 at, okay, you know, maybe they can't just be sitting on the table. Maybe we've gotta put some process in place where the blades have to be when they're, you know, in, in use or when they're on the table, they've gotta be stored in some sort of holder or something so they can't roll off the table and land on [00:54:00] somebody's foot.

00:54:15 things like that with your staff. So here's the thing, okay. It's very easy to just go to say what you said, but then you end up being that type of owner.

00:54:30 put that, hold that knife in its stationary position and now you're going in the back. Sure. And these things will annoy the shit out of you. You know, like if you're really gonna nickel and dime or really be in a very, uh, detailed [00:54:45] person, maybe that's, you may, uh, may, and I'm, when I say you, maybe that's our listener.

00:55:00 the things that I would enforce. Right. So you're constantly in a state of, of, uh, I, I wouldn't say it's aggression, but you're in a state of disappointment constantly.

00:55:15 And, uh, uh, leaving an exacto blade on the table in such a way is normal behavior. Sure. But wearing open towed shoes, that's not, so that was the e that that was the easy, that was the easy [00:55:30] answer for me is just like, let's prevent the thing that I, that I identified as not necessarily the cause of it.

00:55:45 day, most likely. But I do hear your point, like yes. Uh, Putting in those policies to kind of remove, prevent, and mitigate. Like that's a, that's a very good learning point for even me at that point.

00:56:00 just would go back to you and say like, all right, if it's really something that small, you can end up being a real prick of a boss, like making sure all those little things are being done. Uh, example, probably not the best one, but Yeah, I, I, I gotcha. Yeah. You don't, [00:56:15] you don't want to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:30 I gotcha. Yeah. But on the flip side, if it was discussed and that was agreed upon as a group mm-hmm.

00:56:45 question. Michael, I'm gonna let you pick this one. Dude, do you have the list of, you didn't know there was gonna be a pop quiz, did you, Mike? I don't, oh, I don't have it in front of either, so don't hit me with that either.

00:57:00 face with that. Uh, yeah. Yeah. It's in the, it's in the slack. Hang on, let me find it. Hold on. Slack. What's slack? I'm just kidding. It's Teams only better number one is [00:57:15] done. Yeah. Yeah. Screw dudes, guy, guy. I hated that man. Every, when we were on like covid, all the kids were like, oh, pop, I gotta get on [00:57:30] teams for this meeting.

00:57:45 There. There you go. There's your next season Desist, right?

00:58:00 Microsoft next week. Shut these guys up. Mike, what do you got? All right. How do you train your staff not to let customers run your business? This is a fast paced industry for the most part, but I would like to know how to train in [00:58:15] that area better.

00:58:30 this one to me, Brian, it, it, it's funny. So, you know, it, there's a very, one of the things that I'm still adjusting to at in my new job is there's a, there's a, there's a definite culture shift for [00:58:45] me in setting and maintaining a understanding of when we sell a job, we tell a client this job is gonna take x number of weeks from the time that we get permits.

00:59:00 that's the trigger we're going off of, right. And they are very willing as an organization to stick to those guns. You know, 99 times out of a hundred, my prior employer and, and, and the [00:59:15] culture at the prior company was very much, anytime a customer squeaked, it was, it, you know, it was a question, you know, you were two feet in the air already, you know, trying to anticipate how quickly they needed something before they even told you how quickly they needed it.

00:59:30 it's, it's a big culture shift for me. And that's the running, I think that's what the client's asking is, you know, your customers will run your business for you by setting demands on when they need things, how they want things, those sorts of things. You know, I, I think [00:59:45] if, if I'm at least understanding what the, the person's asking, I would say, you know, you, you, number one, you've gotta be able to have answers for your staff that they're comfortable with and able to back up.

01:00:00 those kinds of questions that could otherwise run your business for you. Yeah, yeah. That, that's how I'm interpreting that question as well, is, you know, a customer's opening a new business and we, we hit on this a little bit earlier. Uh, you know, I'm opening my new restaurant and, uh, in three weeks and I need [01:00:15] a channeller to sign and I'm in historic district, so it's gonna require, you know, landmarks review and a variance.

01:00:30 times as well, and he's talked about this quite a bit as well. And this is something that I learned, you know, from him, but educating your customer upfront and, and like, like you said, Jeff, just establishing realistic expectations goes a long way.

01:00:45 terrified to do that. They're terrified to tell customers, no, I'm sorry. I know you need your sign at three weeks. Realistically, that's a, that's a 14 to 16 week turnaround time. Nobody wants to tell the customer that. Right. And some somebody out there is gonna [01:01:00] tell the customer, oh, sure you need it in three weeks.

01:01:15 be right up front. And, you know, tell your cu, tell your, your staff has to understand that those expectations are there for a reason.

01:01:30 it's, it's not gonna go well for anybody. You, you, it's, it has to be this, um, at security, they even went so far as creating like a timeline, almost like a Gantt chart type timeline that, um, was given to the customer as a visual aid.

01:01:45 you know, I love that this is how long Yeah, it was great. It really was helpful because it broke down every stage of the process. This is how long. You should expect design to take, you know, five to seven days, you should expect permitting to take two to four weeks. [01:02:00] You should take expect engineering to take one to two weeks.

01:02:15 simple sign in my mind that I like, sure they can just hit print and it's gonna pop out a set of channel letters for me, and then they just glue it to my wall.

01:02:30 And not only did it help establish realistic expectations on timeline, but it also reinforced in them the value of that sign that they're paying for. How much work goes into getting that sign on their wall for them.

01:02:45 materials and expenses. So it really showed them like, wow. I'm paying these guys a premium and this is, this is all the hoops they're gonna jump through for me. I get it. Cool. I'm gonna back off a little bit. I, it was a really, really powerful tool [01:03:00] that I, I, I recommend every shop consider, you know, creating, you know, in some way, shape, or form for their clients because it, it really helps just put a lot of those, you know, timeline based objections to, to bed, just, you know, without any [01:03:15] opportunity for argument or, you know, pushback at all.

01:03:30 and back them up and back them up if they do. Totally. That's step one. And, and I think that's even more than teaching them that it's okay to say no.

01:03:45 powerful because that, that sales rep is afraid to lose a sale. Partly because they're afraid that they're not gonna have money in their own pocket. But also cuz they don't want to disappoint the boss too. I mean, that's part of it.

01:04:00 So knowing that the whole company has your back, when you say, listen, your three week turnaround time is just not realistic. This is, this is what's realistic. 14 weeks, that's what we can guarantee.

01:04:15 that the company's got your back, if you push back on the customer and say no, I think is, is really powerful. You know, that, that empowering your employees to make those kind of, you know, business minded decisions is, is it's the greatest thing you can do as an owner.

01:04:30 jump in and go like the other direction with this, like, I. This is for like the owner operators. Like once you lay down these guidelines, like you've gotta step out. Like you can't allow the back door because I've seen this happen [01:04:45] firsthand of like, like, Hey, like your team is communicating this.

01:05:00 you are just like you. Hey. Just get weak in the knees for whatever reason. Yeah, I think that's part of backing 'em up. I mean, I think that's like half of the backing them up equation is, is cuz when you do that, you're kneecapping your employee and you're basically undermining them and you're [01:05:15] making them look like an idiot to that customer.

01:05:30 point, Brian.

01:05:45 gonna do that to my staff. I'm not gonna. Meet your ridiculous deadline just because I'm, you know, I'm desperate to make a sale and then just kill my staff for it cuz I'm, I'm not as the owner, like, I'm not the one that's gonna, you know, deal with the shit to get this thing out the door on time.[01:06:00]

01:06:15 mean, yeah, the owner has to be the first, the first in line to say no, but we can do this and then stick to that a hundred percent. The shit slides downhill[01:06:30]

01:06:45 Knife out, I'll just shotgun one. Um, do we wanna stop there if you guys want to answer one more or what are we doing?

01:07:00 Tank over here. Like old school. He's lala's gonna have to reign him in. He's gonna be running out in the street.

01:07:15 got? So there's a couple questions on here that I, I two people ask kind of a similar question, which I think is kind of interesting. Um, let me see if I can summarize these. So basically two people ask, how do you manage growth, um, in terms of what processes need to change, [01:07:30] when do you add equipment?

01:07:45 your, you know, what's your, like, your best number one tip for managing growth in a, in a shop?

01:08:00 companies now that have gone through very rapid growth. Uh, you know, Pete, you, you commented on this at the beginning when I was telling you what my, my current company's change is over a five year period.

01:08:15 I, so I guess the question is, when you say manage, are we asking, uh, are you looking to control it or are you looking to cope with it? You know, what, what word of manager are we looking for here? You know, Could, [01:08:30] well, sure. I'm gonna read between the lines and assume that they kind of mean like avoiding growing out of control.

01:08:45 fallen through the cracks and, and you know, letting things slide. And we've all been there. I mean, it, you know, being too busy is way worse than not being busy enough, I think.

01:09:00 mean that, that spreads like wildfire and it's hard to stop that once it starts. So I'm assuming that's what both of these are kind of implying is, is so, you know, what, what's the secrets of managing that, that growth in a, in a way that's scalable without getting outta control too quickly.

01:09:15 Great segue. I'm gonna take it, I'm gonna take the, I'm gonna take charge here. The, the way to manage growth. Is getting in at the ground level. Very simple. You need to understand [01:09:30] what growth means to you, okay? You're not gonna go from a $500,000 shop to a $5 million shop overnight or even in a year. Okay?

01:09:45 What are the steps of growth? That's where you're gonna start. We're gonna start by identifying with, we're here right now in order to move to our next stage. What? And we identify what that is. There is a pathway [01:10:00] to that. Now, most shop owners. Most shop owners, I would say, I, I, I don't know exactly, uh, uh, uh, percentage, but I would say a, a large chunk of them do not even know what growth is.

01:10:15 things, they grow too quickly. They go from doing 1 million and then overnight they're doing 5 million and they don't know how it happened. There was no, there's no thought process to growth. Growth is a stage there, there are [01:10:30] five or six stages to growth. Okay. Uh, in fact, I probably think that we did an episode on this just where we identified the typical stages of growth.

01:10:45 you an owner right now that's involved in the business? Are you an owner right now? That's the designer. Are you the owner right now? That's the sign maker and installer. Well, if you are, then. You know, there, if you look at where you [01:11:00] are right now and look at where you end up, where you can end up, it's a business that runs itself and you just step away from it and manage it.

01:11:15 letters and steps in between to get there. So you have to map that out. That's where, when I, when I, when I read this question, when I understand like, how do you manage growth, you have to actually understand what phase [01:11:30] of growth you are in, in order to manage it.

01:11:45 what's endgame. Yeah, exactly. Right. Are, are you looking to, are, are you looking to grow the business and sell it? Are you looking to, like, like you said, get yourself, you know, maybe you're the installer owner and you want to just, you, you just want get yourself out of the bucket.

01:12:00 that process, right. So, yeah. What, what, what does it, what does it take to get there? Okay, well, no, I, I gotta get another, I gotta get another installer. I gotta get, you know, another truck. I gotta, you know, this, this sort of stuff. And you kind of map your way out of there.

01:12:15 I think, I, I think what, what you're trying to say, you need to track where you are on that growth process and, and there's things you can do to pump the brakes along the way if you know where you are. Right. [01:12:30] Oh, and I'm gonna just even say, I'm even gonna throw this at you guys. Growth is not measured by dollars.

01:12:45 that does vinyl and fab, or if you're a, if you're doing 2 million and you're just a wrap shop, Growth is not measured in dollars. By the way, I measure growth in the businesses that I own. [01:13:00] It's, I'd rather be a million dollar shop making 20% than a $10 million shop, making 5%.

01:13:15 for the gross dollar amount. I would look at percentage numbers and say, what is this? Where is this? Is this good for me? Is this good for my life? Is this good for my family?

01:13:30 off of, I guess you could say, if I'm gonna look at numbers, it would be percentage points. That's one. And, and two, I I look at it from just like life self-fulfillment is, are, are, are we learning every day? Are we being good, a good [01:13:45] team every day? Are we educating ourselves, becoming better?

01:14:00 If I'm, if I'm checking those boxes, if I'm constantly educating myself, becoming better in this business on a day by day basis, if I am edu, if I'm exceeding the customer expectation, and by putting out superior work [01:14:15] and being active in a team friendly environment.

01:14:30 all minor things to improve upon. But if you're achieving those four key components in your business, it doesn't necessarily matter what business you're in.

01:14:45 success. And success is like, it runs parallel to growth. If you're successful, you're growing period. Interesting. I love these late interesting spin. I told you you guys were in, I told, I told [01:15:00] you you guys were gonna get a very rare version of meat this evening.

01:15:15 you know, having. You know, to your point about, you know, r running a 2 million business at 20% margin versus, you know, a a 10 million business at 5%, you know, I, I'm, I'm seeing that right now firsthand just between the two [01:15:30] companies that I've been with and, and, and, you know, I I, I can tell you that, you know, the low margin, high volume thing, hello?

01:15:45 you're in that world of killing yourself. Yeah. You're, you're clawing for every percentage point. Yeah. When you're doing things like that, you know, 2 million, I, there was once a day being a young new [01:16:00] business owner where I'm like, oh, I gotta get to my first million.

01:16:15 transparent that all that, that means, all that that means is $1 million worth of problems or $2 million worth of problems if you're not improving your systems in your workflows inside your, you know, Brian and I, we call [01:16:30] it an engine.

01:16:45 uh, it's a, it's a system. It's an engine that is comprised of many different workflows and, and processes and people and best practices and marketing automations and [01:17:00] point of sale systems and, and, and things of that nature that are all in here that make your engine run when you are.

01:17:15 when you are not there. That to me, the measure of success, the ultimate measure of success and growth is when you have this machine running and you are not driving the car. You [01:17:30] have no active role in any of the major departments of this business.

01:17:45 I'd love to be sitting at a desk. This is what success looks like to me in, in terms of the growth scale. I'm sitting at a desk and I'm just watching people perform and I'm able to coach when I see something that's done incorrectly.[01:18:00]

01:18:15 can sit at a desk, watch everybody do their things flawlessly, and almost like a head coach.

01:18:30 flawlessly, you are basically a cheerleader for your own business. When the play is done, run incorrectly, you're going to go to that position player and you're gonna identify why it was done incorrectly and make sure that the next time that that play is [01:18:45] called, he knows, or he or she knows what they are going to do the right way.

01:19:00 exit out somehow, the, the people that make the most money in selling their business are the ones that. You sold your business and you are not the key component to making it run.

01:19:15 that, uh, I, I think the, the, the, the, taking it back again though for a second, the, the knowing what your end goal is. I think is the starting point, right? Because not everybody, not, not every business owner wants to, [01:19:30] wants to, to sell or, or, or even may, may not even actually wanna step back from things, right?

01:19:45 rest of their lives. That's, that's the, the fulfillment that, that they get out of it. I mean, I think, uh, I'm trying to remember who it was you guys were talking to.

01:20:00 himself, cuz that's a portion of the business that he knows he's, he's good at that he, that he really wants to be intimately be engaged in. Yeah. You know, that's his end game.

01:20:15 know, sit at his desk and, and cheerlead necessarily. Maybe, maybe he wants to be, you know, a guy, you know, doing the design work or whatever. But, so, you know, maybe he wants, maybe for that guy, you know, it's okay.

01:20:30 myself, I'm gonna inject myself into this for a second, for a hypothetical. Let's say I, I decided I want, I wanted to start my own business, which I don't, but that's another conversation. Let's say I did. My goal would be, all right, you know what I wanna do?

01:20:45 life. I wanna design sciences. I wanna be Mike. I, I want to be the, uh, the, uh, God dang it. What was it? What, what was the, what was the nickname again? I love it. The ma magic Mike. The corr magic Mike. So I just, magic Mike, the Corr King Magic mic, the cor [01:21:00] king there, you version 2.0.

01:21:15 I'm gonna grow towards that, you know, that, that, and so I can just sit back and do my design work and let the rest of the team handle it from there.

01:21:30 So the only thing I would say to that is if you wanted to own a business, and you wanted to be the designer, You just bought yourself a job. Yep. That's all that you did. [01:21:45] You know, men and, and, and then this is not sure, there's no right or wrong answer to this, but the, the answer as to why somebody gets into this business is, I mean, if you ask 10 people mm-hmm.

01:22:00 re there really isn't an argument here. It's just a matter of perspective. If you're going to be a business owner, then own your business. But if you're going to be a business owner because you like the craft and you're a great designer [01:22:15] or great sign maker, you bought yourself a job and there's just no other way around that you're not, you're not a business owner.

01:22:30 That you could be doing everything that a business owner would do. Mm-hmm. If you have a key role in your business, if you are spending time designing eight hours a day, there's not eight hours that you're managing your business.

01:22:45 Coaching, leading training, the none of those, none of of the aspects are being done. And that's what a business owner does. So, yeah. Uh, I have a dozen clients and they all have different viewpoints on this. There's no right or wrong [01:23:00] way, but the only thing that I would say to your point is that if you get into this business to, it's like that technician mindset.

01:23:15 Good barbershop owners. Yep. Because they cut air Well, Right. Beard trimmers don't become beard trimmer owners because they trim beards. Well, get careful there. They, there's a recent, this is oddly, [01:23:30] oddly specific. I was go, I was hoping someone's gonna pick up on it.

01:23:45 mindset. So there's a lot of things to that that I, that I don't wanna bore y'all with, but this essentially growth, growth needs to be managed and it do, and it's managed by knowing what stages you're in and identifying, but first, identifying [01:24:00] those stages for yourself.

01:24:15 So that's, that to me is you have to understand what steps are and then you can manage them your own way.

01:24:30 just pushing. Yeah, no, no, no. It's all good. Good stuff. Mike, do you have any rebuttals, any other thoughts on this topic before we close out the happy hour [01:24:45] session? No, I agree with both Jeff and Peter. I think that technically Peter is, is right to an extent.

01:25:00 do as part of being a business owner. And, but I think Jeff's right also that it depends on what you know, what your goals are and how you define that success and what you want outta your career and why you're starting that business in the first place.

01:25:15 And not everybody starts a business because they want an exit, you know, an exit plan from that business. Some people are the technicians and they just like making cool shit like we've talked about a million times. And, and those people are definitely going to have [01:25:30] different goals than the person who wants to cash out in five years or 10 years.

01:25:45 Control that growth. And then, yeah, I mean, I, I think that they're both right. You have to have a plan to, you know, to achieve that goal.

01:26:00 right? I mean, there's a million tips we could give you on how to control the growth. The reality is, I mean, it doesn't matter if you don't have a plan, you know, to get to from point A to point B.

01:26:15 it, I mean, I'm, I'm a hundred percent a technician, right? Like, I, I, and it took me a long time to understand that, and I, I think I'm, I feel like I'm lucky that I was able to build a, you know, a successful business and sell it and walk away from it and, and had processes and procedures and [01:26:30] staff in place that, that allowed that business to operate without my, you know, my hands and, you know, pulling the strings.

01:26:45 And that's okay. I mean, you just have to, you have to understand that you've gotta really dig deep and look introspectively and understand what it is that you want out of this.

01:27:00 You just have to be honest with yourself and define that before you go any further. And, and I, a lot of those, you know, remaining pieces of the puzzle will fall into place once you do, if you don't define it.

01:27:15 believe that was, that was the mindset that I, I fell into. And, and that was, that was who I was with a business owner. And I faked it for a long time. And I, and I came out the other end successful, but it wasn't me.

01:27:30 if I was more honest with myself, with what I truly wanted and not what I felt like I was supposed to be, and that's a technician and not the business owner mindset, I think. I think I would've built a more successful business that I enjoyed running more, [01:27:45] and maybe that business wouldn't have been as profitable or as worth as much, you know, as on resale.

01:28:00 of that conversation is Yep. Is, you know, can we get this guy some chardonnay on every podcast? Like, do I, I love when you like talk about this man.

01:28:15 in the archive. Well, in the to-do list is like Mike's selling his business story that I want to do. I feel like we definitely need some chardonnay for that, but yeah, there's not, I, I couldn't have World Man, [01:28:30] I couldn't have said that one any better myself of like, you know, you've gotta know what your strengths and weaknesses are and what you want out of it.

01:28:45 right? Like the business, my, my signed design business right now is literally worth nothing. Like, it's not even worth one penny on paper. There's, nobody's ever gonna buy this business. It's not, it's not an asset that I could sell.

01:29:00 a job. I've, I've created a business that has nothing more than a job for me. But this business right now that I'm doing gives me so much more happiness and fulfillment at the end of the day than having a sign shop full of, you know, full of employees that were building signs for me, [01:29:15] because I wasn't making those signs.

01:29:30 It's my business, even though it's a job and not a true business that's sellable in five years or 10 years.

01:29:45 I might not ever be building an asset that I can sell and I can retire off of. And I might be doing this until the day I die at 90 years old. But it's cool. And I, that's my, that's, that's, that's what success is to me.

01:30:00 me, controlling growth is, as, is as simple as now I don't wanna work for you. Now I don't wanna take on that job cause that doesn't look like fun. Now I'm gonna be outta town for the next two weeks, so I'll get to you when I get back. I mean, that's, that's controlling growth for the technician, right?

01:30:15 totally different than controlling growth for the business owner. Neither is right or wrong, but you gotta decide what you want. So, so here's an interesting thought though. I, I, I want to, I want to get your opinion on [01:30:30] this, if we can for a moment, for some of our listeners out there that are looking for more of a different type of answer.

01:30:45 are, but there's a lot of different things that happen in a sign shops or a wrap shops world, right? Like, when should you hire that salesperson? When should you hire another, your second designer [01:31:00] on your team?

01:31:15 know, like they're, they're, those are different types of growth questions. Business, we kind of kind of beat the drum on the business growth side of things, but business growth looks at numbers and percentages [01:31:30] and the why.

01:31:45 I mean, are we talking about going into things like doing like cost benefit analysis type, dive in? Is that the kinda thing you want, you want to get into on, on, on the podcast?

01:32:00 stuff are gonna, wanna, wanna dive deep into the weeds on that. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. But they definitely should Agreed. The majority of them look at a, the go to [01:32:15] ISA and say, you know, I, I asked all of my clients the same question on this week's, on our, this week's calls.

01:32:30 And I remember a day, I remember a, I remember my first CNC machine, and I was like, mm-hmm. We're gonna take this business to the stratosphere. You know? And you, you just start your creative jeans just like, they just bud at, uh, [01:32:45] instantly.

01:33:00 customer right now, one client who's getting into casket wrapping. Okay. It's dude, do not knock it.

01:33:15 But here's, but at some point that is something new for someone else to grow their business. So, at what, so the question is, is like, I, I'm not, I don't wanna harp on one specific one. Pick one and [01:33:30] tell and talk about it. Like, is it e equipment?

01:33:45 So like, looking back at me, like, I identify with both sides of this.

01:34:00 like, I, I've got like the push and pull happening on all levels. So like the first CNC router we got, like, I routed a movable table desk thing for the [01:34:15] computer that was on the C N C router.

01:34:30 me it's, it's like a total push and pull and I, I, I think it, it is like, for me, it all goes back to individually like what you want out of it.

01:34:45 like, like we're doing this now. Like I. Like being in a sign shop. Like, and, and, and even when I was at my previous company, I think that's how we're doing this, right? Mm-hmm. We're not naming names, we're just saying previous companies. My favorite part [01:35:00] of the job was talking shop with business, like shop owners that knew exactly like the day-to-day grind of what the 60 hour work weeks were and commiserating in that, but also like, Hey, let's, let's talk and [01:35:15] hey, like compare notes type of thing.

01:35:30 um, it really, it really is, it really was a shitty answer. Don't, don't buy the equip. Like are you, like, when are you gonna buy the equipment? Um, are you outsourcing that particular stuff that you're gonna buy this [01:35:45] equipment for now?

01:36:00 things are, where you need to, where you need to build. If you start building up, you know, backlog that you can't keep up with, then that's when you start looking at, okay, all right, uh, you got two options.

01:36:15 Outsourcing's not an option, you want to control it, then that's when you're starting looking at your, at your, uh, whether that's a hire or that's a piece of equipment, or a bigger building or any of that stuff, it's all driven by, you know, the sales that you're getting are gonna tell [01:36:30] you what, what you need to do.

01:36:45 like having those toys, certainly, like, if that gives you fulfillment, do it. Like, I, I'll give you a specific example. Like when we started doing the podcast, we did one episode where we talked about outsourcing pretty [01:37:00] hardcore.

01:37:15 if you're gonna buy a flatbed printer, you have to buy a cutter. And then he base his whole, i i, I don't know if he based his whole financial decision on that, but that was what he was using as the justification for his purchase [01:37:30] was like, like these guys said, If, if I buy a flatbed printer, I have to have the cutter.

01:37:45 looking for some way to rationalize that decision. Yeah, I, I mean, I, you can do all the possible benefit of, now analysis is analysis you can come up with and ROI lyses [01:38:00] in the whole nine yards and probably put a number on on where that break even point is where, okay, I'm outsourcing X amount of dollars of this, but I, I mean, I think there's a, there's a gut instinct that comes into play with that as well, a little bit that I don't think anybody really wants to [01:38:15] admit is there.

01:38:30 like. When I bought my first flatbed, it was because I was outsourcing more in a year than what it would cost me to buy a flatbed printer and have it in house.

01:38:45 signs 365 this year. Yeah. It's time to buy a flatbed and do this house. But yeah, like Brian said, like, you know, flat bow, there's a cutter, there's a mach, you know, person to operate it. The thing I didn't take into consideration is the thing runs so damn fast that it really, it almost takes two people.

01:39:00 requires more staff than what I had before. So there's a lot to it that you can't really even begin to predict. I mean, I think. I don't know. And it's a bad answer. It's a shitty answer. Like, Bryant, Gabe, I think like, you gotta trust your gut too. And like, is it, is it the hour of [01:39:15] the day or is it just shitty?

01:39:30 I got a second mortgage outta your house and buy a flatbed printer bar. And what we're gonna do with this one, we're gonna break it into two parts and like, it'll be cut like exactly halfway between.

01:39:45 boom. That's it. Part one. Brian Michael are are sober and part two Brighton, Mike are blast. Awesome. Did we answer that question at all? I, I, I, that person's been outta business next week because of our advice. I feel like.

01:40:00 down. I, we, we got started on the philosophical aspect and I like, I, I just can't let it go at this point in the day. I've had like eight meetings before this one. Hey, I I, I did a film session before this, did a dance class. [01:40:15] I'll, I'll see that and, and raise you. There we go, man.

01:40:30 good excuse. I mean, Pete, what's your excuse? His, his wife's in the other room waiting to celebrate her birthday today.

01:40:45 I've spent nearly two hours with you folks. I'm sorry, my wife's in bed. I think you said that wrong. He probably, I was gonna say, that's not how you pronounce that word.[01:41:00]

01:41:15 and Jeff, always great seeing you, man. Thank you so much for jumping on here.

01:41:30 done. Mm-hmm. That's probably accurate. Very. That is very, very accurate. I look, I, I only say it because I'm gonna get the same thing when I crawl back.

01:41:45 uh, who's the in schmuck that decided at eight 15 to 10 15 is gonna be a good idea when you have a chance with the sign. Viking, you take it. Sorry, Peter, I, I, I owe you an apology. I, you know, tell, tell your wife to sign [01:42:00] Vikings says, uh, sorry. At, I'm sure that'll go a long way for you.

01:42:15 the, I mean, this is like two hours in almost. I, I love that these always go long and that we're always like, eh, just one more. Just one more. And then that was, that was 45 minutes ago that Mike said.

01:42:30 to put it in context for the listeners. If they are still, listen, honestly, like if our listeners hang in there with us like, god long, this is gonna have to be a two-parter. I think I, oh no. Like I, I feel like this is an interesting. You know, like sober to [01:42:45] a bottle of wine in come, you know, case study.

01:43:00 happy hour more often. This is fun. I do like this format. Yeah.

01:43:15 Like, hey. Yeah. All right. So rapid fire takeaways. Do we have any rapid fire takeaways? Rapid fire. We gotta stick to it, even though, Hey, like, I feel like we've already given all the takeaways.

01:43:30 All right. The side, Viking. Jeff. Yeah, Jeff. Jeff, go ahead. Uh, well, yeah, I think, I think the big one for me is, you know, no, if, if you're an owner or a manager or whoever you are in this industry, know what you want out of it [01:43:45] and work towards that. Just, just keep that goal in mind no matter what you're doing.

01:44:00 you got a job. You're, you're in a, you're in a really interesting and diverse industry. You know, we, we, we really do something kind of special. I don't think you guys have focused on that a little bit in the, in the last few cast that I've listened [01:44:15] to, and, and, and I just wanna echo that.

01:44:30 that you want to do in that and contribute to that and just go for that. However you get there, it's a path, it's a journey, but keep the, keep the goal in mind and, you know, just work towards that every day.

01:44:45 thing. Rapid fire takeaways. Now, I was talking with a guy that I was hoping to maybe get on the podcast, uh, earlier this week, and he is like doing a, a lot of boutique type stuff. Um, and he, [01:45:00] like his mentor has been this 80 year old guy that like still bending Neon, has a, owns a successful Shine shop, but he is still spending neon.

01:45:15 like the gentleman I was talking to asked like, Hey, when are you gonna retire? And he's like, like, why would I retire? This is, this is what I love doing. So, you know, there's different strokes for different folks to, like ti I feel like we have to have [01:45:30] like the pop culture references, but, um, what you're talking about will

01:45:45 takeaway from this one. Like, know what you want out of this, pursue that. And Mike, like, uh, well my biggest takeaway is every podcast Mike needs to drink a bottle of wine first or during, [01:46:00] or. I, I can do that. I'm happy to do that. I don't, I consider it, I, the, like, the good news is I don't think that will result in a worker's comp claim for me, because technically none of you, like, we're all independent [01:46:15] contractors here, but I, I don't know.

01:46:30 episode. I'm just drink a bottle of wine, start recording conversations with your friends. Be fine.

01:46:45 Um, I, I think all the topics that we discussed today, I think that's kind of a common thread between them is, is define what you want and, you know, come up with a plan to get there.

01:47:00 anybody else tell you, oh, it's easy to say that when he is not here. It's, that's why I said it. Um, now it's okay not to be the business owner mindset. It's okay to be a technician and that's, that is something that I struggle with a lot [01:47:15] for a long time. Um, you know, hustle porn and, you know, you work 24 7 and that is a mentality that's pervasive, I think in the business owner community and, and, and, and it's really unhealthy and [01:47:30] it's, it's not necessarily what everybody wants and what everybody becomes a business owner for.

01:47:45 And that's fine, that's totally fine. But the rest of us, We are technicians and we, we get the fulfillment out of making the cool shit and not running the business.

01:48:00 wants to tell you that it's not okay. And that's bullshit. It's totally fine to be a technician who wants to make cool shit all day long, every day. Some of the most successful people that I know are technicians. I know a guy works by himself, has one bucket truck.

01:48:15 just is a installer for other sign companies. He just is a, you know, a guy all installer, channelers something. Dude makes 300 grand a year, has a house in Florida, is happier than a pig and shit. And he's, he is there. You'll never find anybody who, who fits the mold of a [01:48:30] technician more than this guy. Um, and he's probably making more money than all of us, you know, and he's happier than all of us, so.

01:48:45 society tells you you want, not what the business community tells you you want, or your networking group or whatever what you want. And, and then formulate a plan to achieve that and, and stick to that plan.

01:49:00 who has, has done that and, and realize that plan, um, will tell you that the grass is greener. You know, over here, I, I definitely can tell you that I've been on both sides of that fence and I love my life and I didn't love it before when I was trying to [01:49:15] become a business owner.

01:49:30 If this sign shop owner whisper. Where do you get me started, uh, talking about Corra. Oh, know, that's a, that's a nasty episode in and of itself.

01:49:45 talk some on that. Well, uh, Jeff, before I launch into the crazy spiel at the end that I always forget. Yeah. Pleasure to have you, man. Always fun to catch up. I'm glad that we decided to start recording [01:50:00] these.

01:50:15 wrangling that. Something in the podcast and I, this has an utter chaos. I'm sober.

01:50:30 think we should do this again, and I, I really hope that Jeff comes back on a regular basis because this is a lot of fun. Jeff, thank you so much. I mean, you know that we love you like a brother and you're always welcome here.

01:50:45 15 minutes. I'm gonna send it to you at like 3:00 AM so you can listen to it in the morning and let me know what you think. This is the new format for the podcast. No. Okay. All right, thanks. Good. Maybe [01:51:00] not. No, this is a, a great format. Good time. All right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring this one home.

01:51:15 super wide format, an ULTRAWIDE format, call our friend TJ at GCI Digital. They will take care of you. They do customer service, just the way that mother used to make it. And we had them on [01:51:30] the podcast, uh, like nine, 10 episodes ago.

01:51:45 solid. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. TJ Rocks. Yeah. Yeah. He's old school. Check out that rusty bus. Yeah. Love it. I, I, I'll, I'll, I'll tease something here.

01:52:00 ish with tj. Maybe just to encourage him a little bit as well, but, Nevertheless. Uh, if you are interested in being a guest, you know somebody who should be a guest on the podcast, [01:52:15] make sure you reach out to us. It is, Hey, at better sign shop.com.

01:52:30 person, send us an email. That's it. That's it. All right guys. All right. If you liked this episode, make sure you hit subscribe to get all the [01:52:45] latest episodes, and check out our website, better sign shop.com.